LH 757 & TU-154 in Mid Air Collision

[John_Tavendale 453]

Another sad day in aviation, over 140 souls suspected dead in mid air collision over Germany.More info here:http://www.cnn.com/2002/WORLD/europe/07/01...sion/index.html

[Guest Delta_L1011]

Man John you got it all wrong :) j/k It was a DHL 757 by the way. There were 2 on the DHL plane, and 69 pax and 10-12 crew members on the Tupolev 154.DHL flight from Bahrain to BrusselsBashkirian Airlines flight from Moscow to BarcelonaDHL Cargo Planes are not equipped with TCAS, so if anything was at fault it was either ATC or the Tupolev really. Also the plane was not over the border yet into Germany. The plane was still fyling in Swiss Airspace and under their control.

[Guest]

Big Sky Theory at its worst! :(bt

[Guest Delta_L1011]

Most of the 60 or so passengers on the Tupolev 154 were children. Only 8 adults were on the aircraft so that leave 52 children dead. Very sad news. Information from Reuters.com

[fspaan 1]

According to the Dutch news this morning: burning pieces of the planes were found in a range of 30 km wide. People on the ground are also injured.According to the news, the tupolev did not descend to lower altitudes on advice from ATC.Regards, Ferry

[Guest Dominik Mann]

Only learned about the incident a few minutes ago on getting up. According to the TV news, the collision took place above the Bodensee, sending burning debris raining down over numerous towns along the waterfront and into the lake. Ships are out in force in an effort to search for victims.This is a sad day indeed :-( ...

[Guest Dominik Mann]

Two more stories...BBC:http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/world/eur...000/2081332.stmReuters (if you can read German):http://www.reuters.de/news_article.jhtml?t...StoryID=1154923:-(

[Guest]

I've been on the same spot just 1 1/2 hours before that accident at FL310 !Furthermore we would have collided with a Lear at the same point when climbing through FL 270 a few monthago if my co-pilot wouldn't have been so lightning fast to respond to the TCAS RA.A quite dangerous spot, isn't it. RegardsBernt Stolle Capt CRJ

[Guest]

Sofar for the real news!Update: Tu-154 en-route from Moscow to Barcelona had a mid-air collission with a DHL Boeing 757. 2 DHL pilots and 69 (including crew) on-board of the Tu-154 were instantly killed. 44 of them were children on a schooltrip (the busses still hold the record for death and injuries regarding the schooltrips in general)There were no groundcassualties.German ATC claimed that the crew of the Tu-154 were ignoring instructions ragarding the change of flightlevels. However, the German ATC also neglected to give instructions to the DHL 757 in order to prevent the disaster. Sofar the "who's guilty part".The collission took place at an altitude 12 km's, say around FL360.Sofar for the correct new-update.My deepest condoleances go out to the families of the deceased ones.[EDIT]Regarding TCAS. Most old Tu-154's don't have TCAS. As for the DHL 757... I think that the pilots were pretty good off-guard at that time so they couldn't react more addequate.[/EDIT]

[Francois_Dumas 10]

Hi Bernt,waved at a CRJ 2 weeks ago again..not sure if it was you ;-)How could that TCAS incident happen? Was that under ATC as well??? :-outta Francois :-wave[table border=0 cellpadding=10 cellspacing=0][tr][td valign=bottom" align="center]"At home in the wild"[/td][td valign=bottom" align="center][link:avsim.com/alaska/alaska_051.htm|Don's Alaskan Bush Charters]"Beavers Lead the Way"[/td][td valign=bottom" align="center][link:www.avsim.com/vfr_center/mainpages/vfr_flights_main_page.htm]VFR Flight Center]"Looking Good Outside"[/td][/tr][tr][td valign=top" align="center]http://avsim.com/hangar/air/bfu/logo70.gif[/td][td valign="top" align="left" colspan=2]http://www.fssupport.com/images/moose2.gif[/td][tr][/table]________________________Francois A. "Navman" DumasAssociate Editor &Forums AdministratorAVSIM Online![/bemail: fdumas@avsim.com________________________

[Guest Dominik Mann]

Well, the last info they gave out on TV was this: Apparently, both planes were under control by Swiss ATC at the time of the incident, which advised the Tupolev pilot to descend when they became aware of the danger. The Tupolev did not react immediately to that advice. On the other hand the 757 pilot had apparently got a traffic warning from his TCAS gear, prompting him to descend to avoid collision. All could have been well if the Tupolev had not entered a descent of its own at this point. Both planes were now descending, right into one another :'( .BTW, I seem to remember that TCAS does only work to the best of its abilities when *both* planes involved are so equipped - anybody conform that?However, please let us all wait for the result of the investigation.

[Guest]

To get back to flightsim:A few minutes ago I

[Guest]

Dominik,> I seem to remember that TCAS does only work to the best of its abilities when *both* planes involved are so equippedI can not confirm this personally, but some

[Guest]

Hi FrancoisMost probably it was me, 'cause I'm flying round the clock ;-)Concerning our near miss:Yes, we were, like the lear, under radar control and cleared to climb to FL280, just passing FL 272 and a Lear 60 (it was so close that it was easy to identify it visually) came from our 3 o'clock level at FL280.The TCAS starts yelling: TRAFFIC, TRAFFIC and you switch to the TCAS page on the display.You are alerted but it's not a big deal 'cause it's normally caused by an excessive climb rate of the 'other' plane.But almost as soon as you have switched to the TCAS page it realizes the danger and starts to yell: DESCEND,and if it gets real close immediatly afterwards, DESCEND NOW!Now you throw away everything in your hand immediatly e.g. newspaper, meal etc... disconnect the autopilot and push the nose over.You KNOW that you really have to be THAT fast now.At the same time ATC realizes the seperation problem and starts yelling at you: LEVEL OFF AT FL 270 IMMEDIATLY. Within a few seconds all the screaming, taking evasive actions and transmitting: xxx radar, flight xxx TCAS descend. is over, with the cockpit looking like a wastebin, two pilots with a rather high adrenaline level and the thought of all the forms you have to fill out now. It's an uncomfortable thought how often that happens especially when the other plane is a military one.I once had a head on near miss with an italian fighter.Be asured, even with the TCAS there would have been NO way to avoid a collision in time. Bernt Stolle Capt CRJ

[JimmiG 244]

Is it just me or are those kind of accidends becoming more common? The TCAS tells the pilots to do one thing, and ATC tells them another, with the result that both planes climb or descend into each other... x(