See link in my next post...

... and I wouldn't forget performance when looking at numbers like this! The NVidia can run Half Life 2 without being optimized at very respectable frame rates. On the other hand, ATI is running Doom III at frame rates approaching single digits while NVidia is running it in the 80s!See this:http://www.hardocp.com/article.html?art=NDc0Hmmm... Glad I went with NVidia.Jim

sorry, I meant no disrespect. I simply wanted to borrow from a political slogan of one of recent US presidential elections "it's economy - stupid".Michael J.

"In all cases, NVidia drivers are more stable than ATI drivers. Just look at all of the issues people are having here with ATI drivers!"This sort of statement is at the very least very shortsighted, and at worse problematic to the original poster. And it is clearly untrue.Cappy, the fact of the matter is that Intel and AMD both offer very good CPU's. nVidia and ATI both offer very good video cards. And of all the advice I've seen in this thread, Michal offers the best with his recommendation of "Progresssystemsinc". While I've never owned one of her systems (I build my own), she does indeed spend time here assisting folks. And I've yet to see her make a post about how important it is to buy her system... and only her system. Gotta respect someone who puts helping others before trying to get them to buy.The bottom line is this... the most important thing to look for in a builder is support. Not just after the purchase, but before and during. Look for someone willing to take the time to listen to your wants and needs, and then build a system to meet them. Don't be afraid to speak about your budgetary limits. This always plays an important part of a computer purchase. Find someone you like working with.Good luck sifting through the hyperbole here...

No problem. I realized the Carville reference after I posted my post which has now been drastically edited. :)Jim

"And it is clearly untrue."There can easily be a debate about this, but I stand by what I said. There are an awful lot of hardware saavy people out there who will agree with me. ATI has a reputation for writing bad drivers. A cursory bit of research will turn that up as fact. However, I will agree that the same research will show that they are getting better. Still, just looking at the ATI issues mentioned here, there are some REAL bad ones that still are hanging around.I will say that it's nice to see so many small resellers mentioned here for the original poster. It's hard to find some of these folks, and I think they are always a better choice than the big boys. You get better selection (often) and much better prices. My advice? Look around at all that are mentioned here and find one with the largest selection of components. That way, you can make sure you get the fastest box you can. In other words, if you get a late model motherboard that will support Dual Channel, you certainly don't want a reseller that doesn't offer memory that will take advantage of that technology!Jim

>Well, I have to say that this forum has become pretty sad>since I last visited. A kind hardware discussion has caused>one person to call me an idiot and another to call me stupid. >I guess that's what you get for spreading FUD. It's nice to know there are still people out there that buy into corporate PR BS. After all the scandals surrounding Nvidia's GFFX line of GPUs, it amazes me that anyone can still defend them. You're completely wrong when you say that Nvidia's problems are only in one game. TR:AOD comes to mind, as do the Halo benchmarks released not too long ago. Let's not forget the numerous DX9 benchmarks that show horrible performance for the GFFX. Let's not forget about the 3dmark03 debacle where it was proved that Nvidia had 3dmark03-specific cheats in their drivers to artificially raise scores. Back to that "one game" though. Half Life 2 has been called by Microsoft "The definitive DX9 benchmark." The creators of DirectX have stated that HL2 is the standard by which all other DX9 games will be judged. Nvidia's DX9 hardware performs horribly in HL2, despite the fact that the developers of HL2 spent 5 times the amount of time optimizing the game for GFFX than they did for other DX9 hardware (ATI). "Just wait for the newest drivers, they'll take care of the problem!" Oh, so I can have even LOWER IQ in all of my games? Gee, thanks Nvidia! Oh, and btw, this article debunks the "Detonator 50 will fix performance problems" Nvidia PR BS http://www.gamersdepot.com/hardware/video_...9_rel50/001.htm Look at the HORRID image quality with those drivers!! It's absolutely appalling that the only way Nvidia can remain competitive with ATI is to reduce image quality to these levels. I'm trying to remain calm here but it's extremely difficult to be calm when people tow the corporate line and ignore what's right in front of their face. I'm now unable to write anything further without blowing a gasket. I'm just going to step away for awhile, and if anything else needs to be said, I'll say it. -Max Cowgill

"There can easily be a debate about this, but I stand by what I said. There are an awful lot of hardware saavy people out there who will agree with me. ATI has a reputation for writing bad drivers. A cursory bit of research will turn that up as fact. However, I will agree that the same research will show that they are getting better. Still, just looking at the ATI issues mentioned here, there are some REAL bad ones that still are hanging around."You can stand wherever you wish, Jim, but your bashing of ATI does the original poster a disservice by limiting his choices. Fact of the matter is, both nVidia and ATI have their issues in this sim (some the fault of the manufacturer's drivers, and others the fault of MS). There are a great many former nVidia owners here who are more than happy with their current ATI cards. They are both good, but not perfect (what product is?).Regards,

Max, Nvidia has made it very clear that their current release drivers are not designed for DX9. The rev 50 drivers are. As I said previously, no one can say what the performance will be with the rev 50s. Nvidia has said that they dramatically improve performance in DX9 games. We'll see when they are released. As for HL2 being the game by which all others are measured, you see that same quote about many games. For example, Doom III is also supposed to be the game by which all others are measured. If history is any measure, the Doom III engine will be adopted by many games in the future. If that's the case, ATI owners are going to be in a world of hurt. The 9800 Pro has a FPS count of 10 on Doom III benchmarks. The exact same system runs at 86 fps with the Nvidia 5900. No typos there. The Nvidia is running HL2 in full DX9 mode without optimized drivers at about 40fps. You pick. Would you prefer to run Doom III at ~100 fps and HL2 at ~40 fps, or would you prefer to run HL2 at ~100 fps and Doom III at ~10 fps? I know which one I choose.I'm not sure why people get so upset over this issue. It's your money. If you'd prefer the ATI, by all means get it! It's a great card. I prefer the Nvidia, and since the money I'm spending on it was earned by me and my hard work, I really don't see any reason for you to be so upset by that choice. I've owned Nvidia for years and have always been extremely pleased.Jim

Greg, I'm not bashing ATI. What I'm doing is stating my opinion as to what I would get and backing that up with numbers from reputable sources. Look at the subject of this thread. "Advice" is what was asked for. Websters defines advice as "opinion about what could or should be done about a situation or problem; counsel." That's precisely what I offered. I'm not sure how that can possibly be construed as a disservice unless you ignore the meaning of the word "advice."As to the assertion that I'm limiting his options, that's just crazy! He has exactly the same options now as before I posted a single word. What I say in this forum does not affect whether or not anyone has the option to purchase an ATI card. Jim

>>>mainly because ATI has always>>written very problematic drivers. >>>>It does sound like someone saying he would never buy Toyota>because Toyota's quality is at the bottom of the list. And>yes, this was true 20 years ago - today they happen to be at>the top of the quality ratings. Apparently ATI's drivers woes>belong to the past or at the very least they improved>drastically.>>Judging by what different people have been saying here>on Avsim (and I have been trying to monitor it carefully) it>is difficult not to reach conclusion that at least as far as>FS is concerned the picture quality that ATI 9800 offers is>simply currently beyond the reach of any Nvidia card.Sorry that is simply not true, in the FS world Nvidia unfortunitly is simply king, pit the best of each against each other side by side and adjust your image settings to the highest or any setting you choose the only catagory that the ATI card can beat the Nvida on is a very very good use of AA but it is all down hill from there, (and it should be pointed out that Nv's 4xs mode is very good) Aniso? Nvidia still the best by far due to ATI's limited AF use and that effects IQ to a high degree when viewing the FS terrain, also the ATI will not AA alpha textures so If you run with Bilinear or the better Trilenear filtering >and Higher LOD levels with the ATI card you will find lots of shimmering of various autogen objects such as trees as well as different Aircraft and panel parts do not get antialiased, the Nvidia cards do not have this limitation.If you are planing to purchase your card with the thought of best image and performance for mainly FS use the Nvidia 5900 will not disapoint but if you plan on getting the best performance out of the next generation of DX9 games you should pass on over to the ATI card as has been pointed out Nvidia has some huge problems to overcome and it is doubtful that even the the NV40 will cure these but only time will tell.As far as drivers go there are as many issues with Nvidias as well so I dont think that you can point a wagging finger at ATI anymore that is just bunk, I guess If I were to pick on ATI drivers I would hope for better compatablity when adding the card to a system that used ANY other card previously causing some to go to the reformat tank.

Everyone is saying that Nvidia has a problem with DX9 games, but that is entirely based on the infamous Half Life 2 benchmarks. Not many point out that the Doom III benchmarks (also a DX9 game) show the ATI lagging SERIOUSLY behind the Nvidia chipset. In fact, that Nvidia still performs relatively well in HL2 (~40 fps) while the ATI is simply unplayable in the Doom III benchmarks (~10 fps). It must be pointed out, however, that all of this is based upon beta games and drivers that will no doubt be highly optimized by the time the games hit the shelf. Things will likely change for the better of everyone.Jim

Max! Isn't it time for you to go fry some hardware? :-lolYou should worry about that when HL2 comes out if thats your bag or any other pure DX9 title, and if it is by all means grab your ATI card because the NV screw-up is only going to get worse before it gets better (NV40 is based on NV36/38 etc.) but this is FS and in that case side by side at the best image settings even a lowly GF4200 card can muster better total image Q that the mighty 9800P and the 5900 does it with the performance to boot.Keep it real Max! :)

Have to agree with Greg on this one, the ATI driver issue is a dead issue; really! There are enough problems with both driver sets now! :-lolAnd that is not a dig against ATI as they have improved 100% while NV is having troubles of their own and seem to be in a spin. I wish both companies would provide 100% on what they claim to support:Nvidia- better shader performance, better AA quality, better driver control and compatibility with DX code.ATI-better Aniso, enable support to AA alpha textures (the hardware will do it, but it has been disabled) and better driver installation routines.

I'll agree that it seems that ATI is improving their drivers (although I would definitely not say 100% improvement) while Nvidia is going in the opposite direction. But Nvidia has a long way to go before they are in the toilet, and ATI has a long, long way to go before they win me over. That's my opinion, and it's based on my personal experience and the experience of many that I know. I think Greg's main point is that I am doing the original poster a disservice by stating my opinion about ATI, and that I am also limiting his choice by stating said opinion. I just can't agree with that assertion, but Greg (and you!) certainly have the right to that opinion just as I have a right to prefer Nvidia over ATI. :)I will say one more thing. I just can't believe that ATI will let Doom III hit the shelf with a 10fps performance on the 9800. I also don't believe that Nvidia will let HL2 hit the shelf with performance so far below the 9800. Forunately, there are enough saavy people out there to prevent (I hope) Nvidia from using smoke and mirrors to improve performance. I think the performance of the chipset has been proven. The drivers just need optimization for DX9. However, to make claims against them based upon beta drivers (leaked at that) running on beta games is a bit crazy if you ask me.Jim