From Flight Sim to real world pilot. Experience/opinions

[NismoRR 191]

Curious how many of you have gotten your PPL. with Flight Simulator as an influence or stimulus. As many if not all around here at Avsim, the dream of flying is what brought me to FSX and now contemplating going for my PPL. This may sound like a familiar story to some of you...I've always wanted to fly and have been amazed with flight. I never seriously considered getting a pilot license because life was always getting in the way. I was watching a few videos the other day of a couple 16 year olds going up for their first solo flight. This had a big impact on me for some reason and led me to seriously contemplate training for and getting my ppl. My thinking is that now I'm 46, in very good shape, have capability and desire....I was saying to myself, Todd, this is something you've dreamed about your whole life, you have nothing stopping you right now and it's a perfect time, stop talking about it and DO it. With that, I went to the local airport yesterday (F70 French Valley, Murrieta, CA) after doing some research online, asked all the preliminary questions about cost, safety, schedule, etc. Turns out that obtaining a PPL will cost in the $10-11K ballpark. Rental costs for a C172 run 125-150/hr depending on model, and $45/hr for the instructor. Requirement is for 40 hours, but I'm figuring at least 50, so $10K+ seems to be a realistic cost. It's not cheap as you all know, but doable. Got home, picked up the Carenado C172 and did a few circuits at F70 in FSX. My plan is to famiarize myself with this plane for the next couple of weeks and then go up for my discovery ride and take it from there, which pretty much means getting over the $10,000 hurdle. I'm sure there are several if not many of you that have gotten your PPL and am curious what your experiences are with becoming a pilot, and any advice you can share. I really would appreciate it.Todd

[PIC007 82]

Before talking about FSX, I suggest you shop around for another school, that one sounds kinda high priced. Also, unless you have a specific need for a PPL, there are now other options, the 'Sport Pilot' and 'Recreational' licenses. They have restrictions on them, but are far cheaper to obtain.Now to FS. It didnt exist when I learned to fly, in fact there was no internet (damn I just admitted I'm getting OLD!) However, when Flight Sim came along finally, I did use it to practice limited procedures and it did help. Flash forward to FSX. It is an amazing program, period. With the exception of the smell of avgas, it is just about 'as real as it gets' and you can certainly learn a lot from it that apply in real life. Having said that, unless you have someone that is a 'real' pilot assisting you, it is easy to develope bad habits that are difficult to break when applied to a real plane. If no one is available for you, there is tons of material on the net to help explain the knowledge and procedures needed. If you are serious about getting licensed, stick with the basics for now in FSX. Select a school, check it out thouroughly including talking to current and past students (not all instructors are created equal) and find out what plane you will be training in. The 172 you mentioned is used for a lot of training, but a 152 is cheaper and you learn just as much, not to mention a lot of schools now use 'LSA' type aircraft. Some schools are in it to make money, some are in it to help you learn. If it is the former, they will drag out your training and it will cost a lot more, so do you own 'due diligence'. Once you know what plane you will be training in, get the best you can if available in FSX, and learn the systems, (I have used the Caranado 152 extensively to help train pilots). Practice 'pattern' work until you can do it without thinking, stay on altitude, heading, speed, do climbs, descents, steep turns, etc and you will find when you get in a real plane your instructor will be impressed.One other note, if the school is FAA Part 141 certified, you can get your PPL in as little as 35 hours. No matter the school, the important thing is to have the time and money to complete the process. Try to fly at least 2-3 times a week, more if you can work it in. If you drag it out, you will forget previous lessons and it will take a lot longer and lot MORE MONEY!Good luck, one you have flown you will never look at the earth the same again.

[vgbaron 3,503]

I agree about checking prices - that sounds a tad high.One caution - most CFI's that I know all say the same thing - although FS gets you familiar with flight, the biggest complaint about students who learned on FS is that they tend to look at the panel way too much and pay attention to what's outside way too little.Vic

[Samwise 1]

I started using flightsim before doing my PPL. My personal oppinion is that flightsim gave me a great deal of confidence and knowledge of the basics. In simple terms, I knew how to control a plane using all the control surfaces and I had a knowledge of basic navigation, and in some cases more advanced navigation using radio aids (which the PPL only touches slightly).However the experience itself is completely different. You cannot feel anything playing a flight simulator, where us up in the sky, you can feel everything. Your body is subjected to forces that you don't usually feel. For this reason, definately take a trial lesson. You may decide you really don't like, but more likely you will feel like it's the best thing you've ever done.During your PPL training you have two options. If you do use the flightsim, use it with caution. Its extremely easy to start shortcutting critical proceedures in flightsim which may lead to bad habits.Hope this helps, and good luck if you decide to go ahead with the training!

[Guest wims]

I dont have a PPL, but I do recommend you joining one of the online networks for flying if you dont already fly online, as it is going to help you a lot when it comes to communicating with ATC and also when it comes to confidence. There are of course a few differences between flying online and in real life when it comes to procedures (for example, because of our hobby not being the most popular in the world there arent as many air traffic controllers online as in real life so center controllers have to control center, approach, tower and ground at the same time etc), but for the most part its very similar and the language is the same.

[whitav8 98]

I am a private pilot who isn't current and I want to fly about once a month with an instructor so FSX is a great way to refresh my basic control skills and since I fly infrequently, helps make the time more effective. Just remember to try to use the view of the outside as much as you can for horizon adjustments and then check the ADI, speed, altitude, vertical velocity, etc with your eyes moving about just like your instructor will tell you. You could add some traffic to make sure that you have something else in the sky to be wary of. The one big problem is the inability to easily look to your right/left/rear quarters for pattern positioning unless you try something like TrackIR (or get 5 monitors for a wrap around view - big $$). Still, you can get some of the sequences down and pretend to talk to the tower - report over the correct pattern entry areas, etc. Perhaps you already know this but the Megascenery Southern California scenery package provides a great VFR experience in your area. I live in Oceanside and really enjoy the high quality visual references from the photoreal ground. Hope you go ahead and at least take 5->10 hours of training - by then you will be landing the aircraft yourself and know if you want to go all the way.Dave W.

[NismoRR 191]

Thanks so much for those helpful replies! I'm a little rushed now, but quickly,First off, one important question. I would have the choice of training with a G1000 panel or steam. My preference is to learn on steam gauges. I think it's important to truly learn the basics. What would you recommend?I thought like you guys, 10K is a little high, but I have no experience. What should it cost? I'm not asking or looking for the cheapest price, but on average, More importantly, I would be looking for a good instructor. Someone I trust 1000% and a good personality match with me. I'm not really thinking that my time in FSX fully transfers to the real world, it's where my love to fly keeps getting stronger. And of course, I learn new things almost daily and basically want to keep going. As mentioned, and I agree, I'll have some good background knowledge. Rotate speeds, approach, controls, (I use a CH yoke, throttle quad and rudder pedals, TrackIR), trim for level flight, charts ADB/VOR/ILS, Vasi, etc., etc. But, I don't know what it FEELS like to pull back on a real yoke, turn, use a real rudder and the cumulative affect on the airplane, etc. I do usually try to fly properly most, if not all of the time. I guess that's up for interpretation, but one thing about getting my ppl, is I will learn to fly properly and I am looking forward to it. Lots of VFR in great scenery areas(PNW, NRM, Megascenery)Of course I have many questions too, about airspace for instance, how to negotiate or avoid, comms with ATC in the real world. Anway, there's a ton more. I have to get going, but will be back later. Have to practice in the 172 I got yesterday also. :( FSX is now changing a little for me. I am going to be doing more practice for real flights with it, besides the many hours of FSEconomy. Looking forward to the whole thing. Thanks again guys! Great info for me.

[bojote 20]

Curious how many of you have gotten your PPL. with Flight Simulator as an influence or stimulus.Todd

For lack of time I've yet to complete mine. *BUT* the first time I ever got into an airplane was 5 years ago in a 172 trainer around Kendall Executive airport in Miami.taxi, takeoff, communication with tower, approach, tower again 6 touch and goes, final landing with HEAVY crosswind all, completely on my own, not a single control input from the instructor, who, to this day still does NOT believe me when I say it was my first time, I owe it to VATSIM, FS2002, FS9 and FSX.that same day, my brother, got the flying bug, he is now a certified flying instructor, and he uses FSX on a daily basis for instrument/checks proficiency and general practice, he is LIVING PROOF that Flight Simulation can and DOES help you get there faster.. he is an Embry Riddle magna cum laude student.Take a look at this:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=faY1rP_PlVwhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uK8aqi0RVtA

[Avantime 81]

I'm a CPL holder, currently doing my Multi IR training. Here are my thoughts:- FS doesn't simulate trim and control forces well, even with the CH yoke that i'm using.- FS don't simulate updrafts and downdrafts at all AFAIK.- Yaw and rudder are really unrealistic.- IRL there's peripheral vision, but not in FS. That's why some real pilots complain it's harder to land an aircraft in flight sim than IRL.- I have TrackIR 4 but haven't used it for a while because it gives me migraines and nausea. It's really strange turning your head one way and turn your eyes the other way.If you can, find a LSA which is certified for PPL training. In my place some are and some are not so beware. They're lighter, cheaper, and have better performance than the average flight school types.(I'm rated in the 172 and the Tecnam but I did the bulk of my training on a DR400.)If you're going commercial do your training on the steam cockpit. if you're flying for fun then it's up to you.Also get your ground exams out of the way before you do some real flight training. Also training in a controlled airfield will help you brush up on those R/T skills.

[PIC007 82]

First off, one important question. I would have the choice of training with a G1000 panel or steam. My preference is to learn on steam gauges. I think it's important to truly learn the basics. What would you recommend?I would recommend analog (steam) first, an instrument is an instrument, but 'glass' can have any number of different softwares installed, so you will never know what your getting into until you get there.I thought like you guys, 10K is a little high, but I have no experience. What should it cost? I'm not asking or looking for the cheapest price, but on average, More importantly, I would be looking for a good instructor. Someone I trust 1000% and a good personality match with me. Shop the different schools in your area and then visit the field and talk to the instructors, thats the only way to find those answers. Price depends on a lot of factors, but I'm guessing 7-8K should get you close. To be honest I havent checked prices in a long time, but the price of avgas in the area will big a big factor. I hate to say it, because I used to be a CFI, but with the current economy, that $45 hour for an instructor sounds high.I'm not really thinking that my time in FSX fully transfers to the real world, it's where my love to fly keeps getting stronger. And of course, I learn new things almost daily and basically want to keep going. As mentioned, and I agree, I'll have some good background knowledge. Rotate speeds, approach, controls, (I use a CH yoke, throttle quad and rudder pedals, TrackIR), trim for level flight, charts ADB/VOR/ILS, Vasi, etc., etc. But, I don't know what it FEELS like to pull back on a real yoke, turn, use a real rudder and the cumulative affect on the airplane, etc. I do usually try to fly properly most, if not all of the time. I guess that's up for interpretation, but one thing about getting my ppl, is I will learn to fly properly and I am looking forward to it. Lots of VFR in great scenery areas(PNW, NRM, Megascenery)Of course I have many questions too, about airspace for instance, how to negotiate or avoid, comms with ATC in the real world. One thing you can do to help yourself, when you decide on exacty what plane you are going to be flying, is to buy a copy of the POH (pilots operating handbook) for that plane and learn the numbers and procedures, it will save you a lot of time. Other things you can do now before starting training is to get current copies of the FAR's, AIM, and sectional chart of your area. If you have access to a scanner, dial in the local airport freqs to get familiar with dealing with ATC, if you are at a controlled field. Doing all the above, I guarentee you will blow away your instructor and save LOTS of hours in the plane. Oh, one other thing. If you do decide to do flight training, somewhere around 8-10 hours (average) you will do your first 'solo', wear and OLD shirt that day !

[LAdamson 240]

First off, one important question. I would have the choice of training with a G1000 panel or steam. My preference is to learn on steam gauges. I think it's important to truly learn the basics. What would you recommend?

I'll tell you how I feel....I'd go for the G1000. I don't believe in the basics (VOR nav) much anymore. A few years back, a group of students were divided into two groups. One group went with the basic six pac, and the other with the G1000. Since navigation began on day one, with the G1000, the glass panel students ended up with their PPL's with less time than the steam gauge students.But that comparison was a few years back. I haven't heard of any test comparisons lately. And of course, aircraft with glass panels will cost more to rent. Other than that, flight sim forums are not the best place for me to argue glass versus old school steam guages. GPS's are somewhat boring in flight simming, since they don't do near what the real product can do. Such as XM Satellite weather, terrain, obstacles, fuel management, auto-pilot control, real time TFR's and much more.I use GPS for the reasons above. Someday, VORs will be history. But you still have to know how to use them for the PPL as of now.L.Adamson

[KevinAu 441]

First off, one important question. I would have the choice of training with a G1000 panel or steam. My preference is to learn on steam gauges. I think it's important to truly learn the basics. What would you recommend?I would recommend analog (steam) first, an instrument is an instrument, but 'glass' can have any number of different softwares installed, so you will never know what your getting into until you get there.I thought like you guys, 10K is a little high, but I have no experience. What should it cost? I'm not asking or looking for the cheapest price, but on average, More importantly, I would be looking for a good instructor. Someone I trust 1000% and a good personality match with me.

You'll need to be able to be comfortable with both steam gauges and modern glass these days. If you choose to learn on modern glass, just understand it will be a lot more expensive, that you will be paying extra for things that you will not be allowed to use on a checkride, and that you may be weaker in some fundamental skills. You can always convert to modern glass after you pass the checkride. But if you don't have decent legacy skills, you may not pass the checkride.A friend of mine got her PPL last year. She trained on G1000 equipped Skyhawks. One of her regrets is that she chose the G1000 aircraft because it ended up costing over $11K. Looking back and being wiser, she felt that it would have been smarter to learn on the cheapest and most basic aircraft. You can always spend a few hours getting checked out and comfortable with a nicely equipped glass plane to do your hamburger runs with after you've gotten the license. You don't need to pay the extra overhead of a glass plane for 60 hours like she did. But it was a nice plane.As far as using the flightsim during flight training, it does help. I have had FS since FS2. I learned to fly during the FS4 era. I didn't use it too much during the private pilot phase, since a lot of it was learning motor skills, especially pre-solo. But once you get to parts that are more procedure oriented, like navigation and cross country flying, it is more useful. I would also use it post-lesson, rather than pre-lesson. You need to approach your time with your instructor with an open mind and take in what he has to say instead of getting some kind of preconceived and incorrect notion about something that you got from doing it on your own unstructuredly in the sim beforehand. Once you've had the lesson, then go home and use the sim to practice, retain and reinforce what you learned from your instructor. That will save you money in the plane by reducing time in the aircraft spent practicing previously learned material.I found FS most useful during the instrument rating. Since that is something that is almost entirely procedure oriented, it lends itself very well to flightsim. It was less useful during the commercial license since a lot of it was motor skills and visual maneuvering again. It was useful, at least Fly! was, when I was in training to fly the PA-31 with a Part 135 cargo company. These days, I use the FeelThere ERJ to practice before my recurrent checkrides in the big box for that plane. As do many of my friends and those at the mainline who use the PMDG 737 to practice for their realworld sim rides.The most important thing about using the sim is how you approach it. If you stay disciplined with it and follow all your learned procedures as if you are flying the real plane, then you will get much out of it. If all you do is turn on the computer, jump into an already running plane sitting on the runway and then just blast off and do whatever until you crash, then you will get nothing out of it.

[LAdamson 240]

and that you may be weaker in some fundamental skills.

Problem is..................what is really fundamental? Some flight instructors still believe that the VOR system is a skill and right of passage in order to fly. Other instructors can't wait for the day that all VOR's disappear. Two years ago, two long time civil air patrol pilots flew into a mountain in darkness, while fiddling with the pages of a Garmin 1000. While they knew the VOR system well, they didn't yet have the minimal skills to use the glass. Therefor, it's really the definition of "skills".The basic VOR navigation system came into use in 1943. It's very outdated compared to the extremely useful information you can get from the GPS systems. IMO, if you rent a plane with the basic six & nav system, then carry along a handheld GPS. If the instructor turns off the GPS with a "smirk" on his face............then throw him/her out! I have a database of flight into terrain accidents since the 1940's. I have thousands of reasons to use the "much" improved technology. L.Adamson

[Murmur 3,941]

IMO, if you rent a plane with the basic six & nav system, then carry along a handheld GPS.

Yes, carry along a GPS and don't get complacent with it. Make sure, in the rare but possible event that you lose the GPS, that you won't lose your situational/spatial awareness in any phase of the flight. And maybe the instructor who shut off the GPS during your training, prepared you better for this event than the one who wouldn't.Marco

[KevinAu 441]

Problem is..................what is really fundamental? Some flight instructors still believe that the VOR system is a skill and right of passage in order to fly. Other instructors can't wait for the day that all VOR's disappear. Two years ago, two long time civil air patrol pilots flew into a mountain in darkness, while fiddling with the pages of a Garmin 1000. While they knew the VOR system well, they didn't yet have the minimal skills to use the glass. Therefor, it's really the definition of "skills".The basic VOR navigation system came into use in 1943. It's very outdated compared to the extremely useful information you can get from the GPS systems. IMO, if you rent a plane with the basic six & nav system, then carry along a handheld GPS. If the instructor turns off the GPS with a "smirk" on his face............then throw him/her out! I have a database of flight into terrain accidents since the 1940's. I have thousands of reasons to use the "much" improved technology. L.Adamson

What is fundamental? Fundamental is what you have when you have nothing left but the basic instruments required by the regulations. When they start making GPS moving maps part of the minimum required equipment for your Part 91 VFR flying, then we can talk. When they add your Garmin to what's required in 14CFR 91.205( b ), then you will have a case. Until then, if you can't fly a plane as safely with only the equipment listed in 91.205( b ) as you do with a big LCD moving map, then you have a problem.