A question regarding XPlane 10

[DMullert 216]

Hello Gang!I am one of the "silent observers" here at the forums and have been around for over 20 years, posting from time to time. For the most part, I have been a MSFS series user for years, especially since days of SubLogic and FLY were over. I am also an ocassional user of X-Plane and have had the last 3 releases (the old XPlane, version 8, and version 9), and lookng forward to version 10. I am very encouraged by what has been shown so far by Austin for version 10 (the aircraft details, the new graphics methods and technology, we know about the wondeful flight modelling, etc...), but one things that has always turned me down a bit from X-Plane is ATC and AI traffic and I have not seen anything regarding that being discussed yet - maybe I've missed that. One of the most inmersive features of the FS series is the fact that you have traffic - real traffic around you. Stuff such as ADE, TTools, and the other payware traffic addons available make this happen in a very realistic manner. You can see the aircraft, you can hear the tower talking to them, you can get with them in the traffic pattern, etc..., and considering the shortcomings of the MSFS ATC system, it does a relatively decent job of controlling your aircraft and the others.Does anyone here in the forum know anything about how AI traffic will be incorporated into XP10 if at all? I wonder if Austin will eventually prep the ground so that at least commercial traffic addons such as MyTraffic and such could release X-Plane versions of their products.Thanks for any information.Sincerely,Dennis D. Mullert

[Kesomir 0]

Does anyone here in the forum know anything about how AI traffic will be incorporated into XP10 if at all? I wonder if Austin will eventually prep the ground so that at least commercial traffic addons such as MyTraffic and such could release X-Plane versions of their products.

Dennis,ATC and AI are some of the main features coming in x-plane 10.See Austin's nuttiness

As well, the X-Plane 10 engine is DYNAMIC. I have now, for X-Plane 10, made it so that EACH FLIGHT MODEL RUNS ON IT'S OWN CPU. Here is what that means: If you have 20 processors, then you can run TWENTY AI PLANES WITH BASICALLY ZERO FRAME-RATE HIT. Crank the number of planes up to 20 in X-Plane 9 and watch what happens to the frame-rate. Try it now: Set the number of planes to 1 and look at the frame-rate. Then set it to 20 and look again. See the hit? That is because all of those flight models are running on ONE CPU, one after the other, in order. With X-Plane 10, each flight model can run on it's own CPU, all at the same time--if you have 20 CPUs, running 20 planes is no slower than running 1. Now, most of you don't have 20 CPUs, but if you have a quad-chip dual-core (per chip) Mac like I do, then that is EIGHT cores--and they can handle 20 flight models while hardly breaking a sweat. The frame-rate impact of 20 planes is small: We have eight cores splitting the work! As well, we have optimized the RAM-use of each airplane to be considerably lower. This means that there is less RAM impact to having 20 planes flying at once, making it much more feasible to have 20 planes at one time. So, X-Plane 10 will use less RAM, and give more frame-rate, than version 9 when loaded up with planes (all other settings being equal, of course). So why do I care about all these OTHER planes so much? Well, we have hired a full-time programmer JUST for the new ATC code for X-Plane 10. This new ATC will control ALL the planes in the sky, including yours, to deliver incredible ATC realism. Using pre-recorded WAV files, you will HEAR the controller giving instructions to the OTHER planes, and see them following those instructions on your TCAS and out the window. The other planes will all take-off, land, taxi, stop on the ramp, miss approaches and do touch-n-goes, all while taking commands from ATC, all of which are audible on your radio.

This is from 15 sept 2010 on the news page.http://x-plane.com/pg_news.html

[DMullert 216]

Hey Thanks for yoru quick reply!Indeed I missed this. Looks encouraging. I wonder if we're going to be able to assign the AI aircraft to routes like we do in MSFS and have entire airline fleets assigned to real world schedules like we do in MSFS. X-Plane is becoming the new standard.Thanks!Sincerely,Dennis D. Mullert

[MatthewS 761]

I would hope the plugin SDK for XP10 is flexible enough so that 3rd party devs can produce their own ATC plugins.Then all the World Of AI flight plans could be integrated into XP10 (via the ATC plugin). Additionally AI aircraft could then be made to fly real world SID's and STAR's (again controlled via the ATC plugin).The possibilities are endless as long as Austin gives developers the appropriate level of control via a plugin SDK.

[Guest veeray]

I would assume you could program that entire ATC plugin out of process using the current kit.

[MatthewS 761]

Presumably if the SDK allows a plugin to create/destroy objects (ie AI Aircraft) and set waypoints.It's possible in FSX (to a large extent), I actually had a SimConnect program that took over control of AI Aircraft that were departing/arriving at airport (in my case i was "spotting" at VTBD). So it would vector them using the correct SID/STAR based on the active runway... Worked well except for aircraft that had landed since I had no easy way to direct them to the arrival gate (and didnt want the hassle of decoding the AFCAD to find taxi routes). But was quite nice to see sky filled with aircraft following proper departure and arrival procedures.That sort of thing should be possible in XP10, assuming the plugin SDK is flexible enough, but I don't know since never took much interest in doing in dev for XP.

[Minos 26]

Ain't WOAI and 20 AI aircraft maximum an oxymoron?Minos

[stefanos5913 0]

Ain't WOAI and 20 AI aircraft maximum an oxymoron?Minos

I thing Austin uses number 20 to give an example. Where does it say that you won't be able to have more than 20 planes at once? From what I understood you will be able to have more than 20 with the respective demand on resources.Cheers

[dm123 19]

I thing Austin uses number 20 to give an example. Where does it say that you won't be able to have more than 20 planes at once? From what I understood you will be able to have more than 20 with the respective demand on resources.Cheers

I thought I read in one of the posts or forums that at release, you will be limited to 20, with more in an update later on. This would be mainly because with each having their own flight model, very few computers could handle any more that 20. I could be completely wrong though.personally, I am wondering how my computer will handle it, because it has many cores (8 with hyperthreading) but a low clock speed (1.6ghz).

[MatthewS 761]

If the XP limit is 20 AI planes then a ATC plug-in needs to be able to simulate/track the progress of 1000's of aircraft itself but only create in XP the 20 closest AI aircraft to the users aircraft. And likewise destroy AI aircraft when they venture too far from the users aircraft to make room for new closer aircraft.20 aircraft seems OK to fill the sky near the users aircraft with "modest" traffic. But on the ground at a busy airport its not going to be enough.Not sure why AI aircraft need to have full flight models. Guess they will look realistic during flight.What a shame the limit is 20. IMHO very "wacky" design decision by Austin because people want max FPS and noone is going to want to run many (if any) AI aircraft with full flight models that tap FPS.

[Guest veeray]

Hmm I think you'd be hardpressed to find 20 AI models that would be suitable for a given airport. Correct me if I'm wrong but I recall that being the situation with the CSL. If there is 20 then I'd guess they are full blown models and repaints.. not low detail AI objects.

[MatthewS 761]

Hmm I think you'd be hardpressed to find 20 AI models that would be suitable for a given airport. Correct me if I'm wrong but I recall that being the situation with the CSL. If there is 20 then I'd guess they are full blown models and repaints.. not low detail AI objects.

Yes... which is why XP10 needs a basic (table driven?) flight model that can be used for AI aircraft. Then all the AI need to be are low poly visual models like with WOAI for FSX. Frankly with Austin's full flight model approach for AI aircraft I can't see XP10 AI being anything more than a novelty which people quickly turn off.And as we all know Austin is "always right" so the chances of it being changed are minimal. XP10 loses points here against FSX (and presumably Flight). If he wants to win more FSX converts he needs to cater for the AI crowd that demand real world flight schedules and airports/skies filled with realistic amounts of air/ground traffic.It's a great opportunity that XP10 has lost.

[Guest veeray]

Quite frankly there could be nothing better than 20AI/Multiplayers with full physics.... someone in a c172 should face the consquences of taking off immediately after a b52. And besides XP9 already supports dumbed down physics can't see him removing it. My guess no one has asked for more than 16 to begin with, so 20 AI with full physics is hardly a comprimise.

[MatthewS 761]

Quite frankly there could be nothing better than 20AI/Multiplayers with full physics.... someone in a c172 should face the consquences of taking off immediately after a b52. And besides XP9 already supports dumbed down physics can't see him removing it. My guess no one has asked for more than 16 to begin with, so 20 AI with full physics is hardly a comprimise.

Yes good for multiplayer, and maybe the nearest X number of planes (user option) can be full flight models. But the rest of aircraft should be low detail flight model.That way you could still have 100's of AI aircraft populating skies/ground around you but only the nearest X aircraft are using full flight model.Seems best of both worlds!

[DMullert 216]

Hey Gang!So, maybe I'm missing a point here, but why care so much about the flight characteristics of the AI aircraft around me? I could care less!!!!! As long as the AI world is there around me and I can see them, my TCAS can see them, ATC directs them, and they follow the ATC commands and SID/STAR rules, etc... I really could care less how they fly. I would definitely like to see an AI world like we have in MSFS with some additional intelligence about ATC and how the AI fly in the differnet classes of airspaces while taking into account things such as terrain around the airport and such. Maybe going this route may help save some processor real estate and power to run XP10????Please excuse my ignorance if I have missed a point here.Thanks!Dennis D. Mullert