Defeating Pirates should not be a chore for honest buyers

[Guest jahman]

Ever wonder why PC games come out 6-12 months behind the consoles....if at all. Sorry the installer may take 1-10 minutes... keying in my serial only takes 20 seconds... do the math most of the time is spent on system configuration not serial hashing.

I don't particularly care where the three day reinstall time goes. For all I know, I should be able to come back 72 hours later and have everything reinstalled automatically. The problem with having to key in a serial whatever for most every add-on is I can't get away to to something else with my life: I am shackled to staring at that dumb install progress bar and clicking on zillions of OK buttons to say I agree with user agreements neither I nor anyone else has ever read nor intends to ever read, then endless OK buttons once each install has finished. So why can't we point the FSX installer/repairer/updater to a particular directory where we have all our software installers and have FSX install everything from there automatically? Can't be thaaat hard to do!Better yet FSWhatever should incorporate the concept of a software library where all the downloaded installers reside, then present a list with a dialog box to install, repair or update the selected add-ons, all automatically, all the while applying secret registration codes and whatnots from an encrypted registration key database, similar to what Internet Explorer has been doing since forever, so nothing new here.In today's World requiring 72 hours to do a reinstall of a software ecosystem like FSX while requiring the simmer to "standby" for serial numbers and meaningless button clicking is plain crazy. Argue all you want, you will never be able to count the number of folks that just got tired of crashing, tweaking, reinstalling and left flight simming for good. (And maybe if they hadn't the ACES team would not have been fired and we would be running FSX SP4 while we wait for Flight.)So veeray, you do the math! :-)Cheers,- jahman.

[ExNusquam 11]

That's your primary argument? That legitimate users have to paste in too many serial codes? That is downright lazy. If you don't want to click "OK" so many times, install fewer things. Or, create a program that does it all automatically, then distribute it freely over the internet with no DRM as you say developers should. As multiple other users have pointed out, those protections and DRM software are there to reduce piracy and at least try and return some of the developers investment. If you can't see that that is the underlying issue, why do you even purchase addons?

[mgh 89]

That's your primary argument? That legitimate users have to paste in too many serial codes? That is downright lazy. If you don't want to click "OK" so many times, install fewer things. Or, create a program that does it all automatically, then distribute it freely over the internet with no DRM as you say developers should. As multiple other users have pointed out, those protections and DRM software are there to reduce piracy and at least try and return some of the developers investment. If you can't see that that is the underlying issue, why do you even purchase addons?

His primary argument is that developers should offer their add-ons free of charge on torrent sites and rely users volunteering to pay for them.

I therefore propose that developers themselves put their products free ofcharge on torrent servers, together with a URL where honest users like me(100% of software paid for) can pay for the software we use.

[sonic5 0]

That's your primary argument? That legitimate users have to paste in too many serial codes? That is downright lazy. If you don't want to click "OK" so many times, install fewer things. Or, create a program that does it all automatically, then distribute it freely over the internet with no DRM as you say developers should. As multiple other users have pointed out, those protections and DRM software are there to reduce piracy and at least try and return some of the developers investment. If you can't see that that is the underlying issue, why do you even purchase addons?

Yes you do have a very valid point, why purchase ADD-ONS if you cant use them? I know I wont and if others are having the same problems as I , then they would be smart not to purchase anything else until these problems are fixed. I mean why whats the point? To buy something you cant use?

[n4gix 4,947]

His primary argument is that developers should offer their add-ons free of charge on torrent sites and rely users volunteering to pay for them.

It's also very informative that he's yet to respond to my challenge: risk his $10+ thousand dollar investment on such a scheme, then be honest enough to eat the resulting crow when it fails miserably.

[WarpD 824]

Hey, Mr. Informative, see how well *your* DRM works: 6,320 hits on Google for the search string "eaglesoft cessna citation x" plus another word that rhymes with "current" Great DRM, man! :-) Q.E.D. Plus, they way you talk to me you forget I put real money in your company's pocket. Show some respect, even if you disagree.Cheers,- jahman.

Ah... so now you're advertising for the pirates. Not very respectful of you.

[ExNusquam 11]

You are the lazy one, for you only quote the part of my post that suits your argumentative needs. The idea I propose is a good one, so you might want to build on that, rather than inanely stating thay I am lazy. Any software ecosystem that requires hundreds of serial numbers to be re-input as part of a re-install is insane, and most everyone relizes that.

Any software ecosystem that is comprised of different programs by different developers is going to need different serials, and will never operate together. Try reinstalling Aftereffects, then Sony Vegas. Programs that work well together, but need different serials.

I would, unfortunately many years have gone by since I last programmed. But others do code complex programs and give them away for free, for example FS Recorder.

FSRecorder is an awesome program, however, a fully modeled aircraft or scenery is a completely different animal. Aircraft/scenery require the underlying code on top of a working 3d model with textures which is considerably more work. Those who do put out quality freeware aircraft and scenery are awesome for what they contribute to the community. (Not that FSRecorder isn't awesome)

Maybe I do see the underlying issue, except I see it differently than you. Heck, Amazon also sees the underlying issue my way, for it sells zillions of downloadable songs in DRM-less MP3 format. Are you implying Amazon also fails to see the underlying issue?

Comparing the digital music industry to the FS industry doesn't work. The digital music industry is, well, massive, no matter how you look at it. The ability to transfer files is pinnacle to success, and the RIAA has the resources to sue people who pirate their files (Look at LimeWire or most major colleges), which is something most FS developers can't say.

For your education and enlightnment, I purchase add-ons because I don't believe in stealing and I want money to flow to developers so they make more Add-Ons that I can enjoy.

I therefore propose that developers themselves put their products free ofcharge on torrent servers, together with a URL where honest users like me(100% of software paid for) can pay for the software we use.

Your quote. You want money to flow to developers, bu you are willing to give people the legal option of not paying for the software. That would likely chop off *most* cash flow to developers. (See example below)

What I am saying is that DRM doesn't work (see my reply to n4gix below) and only penalizes paying customers of add-ons like me, and that when we dare to complain about the overhead of DRM we get the .rap beaten out of us by ungrateful developers.

People who I talk to regularly tend to pirate everything they possibly can. There is one addon that they wanted, which they were unable to crack (Fly the Maddog), and guess what? Leonardo got 3 more sales. Good DRM works. Crappy DRM does nothing but produce this argument.

[Guest jahman]

Any software ecosystem that is comprised of different programs by different developers is going to need different serials, and will never operate together. Try reinstalling Aftereffects, then Sony Vegas. Programs that work well together, but need different serials.

Exactly, it is a lot easier for developers to stuff DRM-du-jour down loyal customers throats than it is for them to get their act together and with or without Microsoft develop an add-on-store as I proposed above.

FSRecorder is an awesome program, however, a fully modeled aircraft or scenery is a completely different animal. Aircraft/scenery require the underlying code on top of a working 3d model with textures which is considerably more work. Those who do put out quality freeware aircraft and scenery are awesome for what they contribute to the community. (Not that FSRecorder isn't awesome)

By now in the discussion you should have realized the bigggest problem is not the keys themselves (nobody objects to the keys per se) but the time involved in administering the multitude of keys and then feeding them in one-by-one which means (again) you can't go and do something else for hours on end.

Comparing the digital music industry to the FS industry doesn't work. The digital music industry is, well, massive, no matter how you look at it. The ability to transfer files is pinnacle to success, and the RIAA has the resources to sue people who pirate their files (Look at LimeWire or most major colleges), which is something most FS developers can't say.

Oh, and the RIAA really stopped people from pirating music! ROTFLMAO! Sure music sales are more massive, but last time I checked I didn't see an add-on developer spending millions just to promote his add-on. Did you? The numbers are larger but on both sides of the equation, and the RIAA has hurt the music industry big-time because it convinced the studios DRM was the way to go, thus in the process teaching millions of kids and adults to steal music because back then buying music legally for a buck a song was not available. The parallels at different price points and costs with the FSX add-on market are valid, even thought the music and add-on markets are not "identical". In each case the industry thought DRM was the Holy Grail to keep revenues safe when it clearly wasn't.

Your quote. You want money to flow to developers, bu you are willing to give people the legal option of not paying for the software. That would likely chop off *most* cash flow to developers. (See example below)

Your confusion stems from the fact that you think that DRM will keep folks from stealing software, when it doesn't. It only gives developers an elegant way of treating your good paying customers as if they were potential thieves. We customers know it, and we feel it.

People who I talk to regularly tend to pirate everything they possibly can. There is one addon that they wanted, which they were unable to crack (Fly the Maddog), and guess what? Leonardo got 3 more sales. Good DRM works. Crappy DRM does nothing but produce this argument.

Great! I just did the same search as before on that aircraft and got back 200% MORE links! I could be flying that aircraft right now with the second link listed, thanks to Google's way or ranking links. Keep feeding me add-ons, I'll keep searching with Google. Get it into your head: DRM DOES NOT WORK! Every developer requiring customers to include order numbers in their forum signatures is telling you DRM does not work!No point really continuing this thread unless you and other folks (developers and users) want to contribute constructively on how to work with or without Microsoft to set-up an Add-On Store to manage (download/register/update/install/uninstall) all your Add-Ons automatically.If John Lennon had been a simmer, he woud have said:Imagine there's no DRM, It's easy if you try,No hell below us,Above us only sky.Imagine all the people,Installing Add-Ons today.Imagine there's no piracy,It isn't hard to do,Nothing to kill or die for,And no security keys too.Imagine all the Add-Ons,Running FSX in peace.You may say that I'm a dreamer,But I'm not the only one.I hope someday you'll join us,And the simworld will be as one.Cheers,- jahman.

[WarpD 824]

No one's going to make what you want. No single 'store'. Isn't going to happen. To be brutally blunt, your opinion just isn't that important in this regard and has almost no impact if ignored. On the other hand, having no DRM has a massive impact on a software developer. Here's what DRM does for the developer: Increases revenue stream. If you can't figure out how, then you truly don't understand the purpose of software protection.I personally am concerned with your extensive knowledge in obtaining illegal software. However, if you want DRM to go away... then do the right thing: get rid of places that advocate/support/promote software theft. Instead of attacking those who would protect themselves from thieves... try attacking the true cause of your concerns, the thieves.

[BartEnder 2]

No offense, but I can't see the purpose of this topic...I use the car alarm, I have my house monitored, I have my office accessed via biometric devices, I have a locker in the basement.... And so on. Why? Because of thieves. Pirate is the same as thief, but people get used to it and no one of You are mumbling, when You have to carry pounds of keys, replace some of them from time to time, change batteries for car alarm and so on.It's life... That's the people!

[Matthew Kane 1,343]

No offense, but I can't see the purpose of this topic...I use the car alarm, I have my house monitored, I have my office accessed via biometric devices, I have a locker in the basement.... And so on. Why? Because of thieves. Pirate is the same as thief, but people get used to it and no one of You are mumbling, when You have to carry pounds of keys, replace some of them from time to time, change batteries for car alarm and so on.It's life... That's the people!

True Dat....But it is amazing how when the Car Alarm or House Alarm goes off.....no one cares anyways. I'd rather not worry about any of it. Also consider that the most pirated software developer in the history of Computers is also the wealthiest developer in the history of computers. Bill Gates has had his software pirated since back when he was developing software in the Altair. In his beginning most of his stuff was pirated before he could get it to market. And probably most people on here has had a pirate copy of MS Office or Windows at sometime in the past 10 or 20 years…..That's life.

[sluggy 3]

You have to put the key in ONCE when you install or reinstall. Big bloody deal. Brush up on your software maintenance and backup skills, then you won't have to reinstall the whole shmozzle when you 'experiment' and royally root your system.If looking after software keys or codes is too hard, well maybe you need another hobby. Cheers, SLuggy

[Raindance 25]

"Also consider that the most pirated software developer in the history of Computers is also the wealthiest developer in the history of computers. Bill Gates has had his software pirated since back when he was developing software in the Altair."That's true, but Microsoft probably made the bulk of their money from pre-installed Windows on new PCs. Nevertheless people do buy OEM copies on disk; my last PC was a recycled office machine with a clean HD, and currently runs a purchased copy of XP. LIkewise my previous machine, which ran OEM Win98.As far as back-ups are concerned, the simplest option might be to buy an external USB drive, now they aren't too expensive, and mirror your main drive on that once a week or so, or if you plan doing anything that might corrupt or destroy installed software.

[Guest veeray]

Yup and there was even a time when businesses "shared" copies of Microsoft software among all their PC.. you don't see that anymore.

[Guest jahman]

No one's going to make what you want. No single 'store'. Isn't going to happen. To be brutally blunt, your opinion just isn't that important in this regard and has almost no impact if ignored. On the other hand, having no DRM has a massive impact on a software developer. Here's what DRM does for the developer: Increases revenue stream. If you can't figure out how, then you truly don't understand the purpose of software protection.

Um, like the thread moved on a while back from no DRM at all to... well, you can read it yourself back up there.

I personally am concerned with your extensive knowledge in obtaining illegal software.

My point exactly about DRM: Do two (as in on, then another) Google searches and you're a DRM expert! That's all it took for you to consider that I have "extensive knowledge in obtaining illegal software": 2 measly Google searches...

However, if you want DRM to go away... then do the right thing: get rid of places that advocate/support/promote software theft.

And how do you propose I do that?

Instead of attacking those who would protect themselves from thieves... try attacking the true cause of your concerns, the thieves.

Why should I attack anyone? As a paying customer, I do have the right, though, to protest to developers that for large installations of FSX with many add-ons the current system is (read previous posts).

You have to put the key in ONCE when you install or reinstall. Big bloody deal. Brush up on your software maintenance and backup skills, then you won't have to reinstall the whole shmozzle when you 'experiment' and royally root your system.

It is not "the key" as in only one, it is inputting many, many keys and it takes many, many hours, as I've explained previously in this thread. Which part of my explanation fails to osmose into your brain?

If looking after software keys or codes is too hard, well maybe you need another hobby.

Great! I'm listening: Please share your tips for avoiding a reinstall of FSX when you can't seem to trace the source of your CTDs, lack of performance, or migration to a new operating system or a new CPU/MB so that I and others (according to you, henceforth and collectively, the "software challenged") can avoid this tedious task. We are all ears!Cheers,- jahman.