Defeating Pirates should not be a chore for honest buyers

[WarpD 824]

If you are unwilling to deal with the copy protection, your only recourse is to never purchase commercial software of any kind ever again. Not one company is going to even remotely entertain your expectations of one installer for all software.Steam is the closest thing to that which you demand, and it still requires that you input the individual keys. No software company is going to release their product unprotected to anyone. It just isn't going to happen.If you want your 'problem' to go away... get rid of what's actually causing your 'problem' to exist. Piracy.

[Matthew Kane 1,343]

If you are unwilling to deal with the copy protection, your only recourse is to never purchase commercial software of any kind ever again.

I am willing to deal with it but I will also complain about it.....Just like I'll complain about filing taxes or the government. That is in my nature as an Irishmen.I store my FSX purchases over 3 hardrives and file away the reinstall codes in safe places. But the pirate copies are out there anyways so it is all for nothing. That is my complaint. I agree....Steam is the best system out there so hopefully this next MS Flight uses something like that and allow third party developers on board with distribution.

[Guest jahman]

If you are unwilling to deal with the copy protection

Re-read my posts, that's not really what I'm saying.

your only recourse is to never purchase commercial software of any kind ever again.

No, I might just buy less rather than more. Is that what you want? Stop painting the situation as only black or white.

Not one company is going to even remotely entertain your expectations of one installer for all software.

Well, suppose Microsoft restricted Flight to add-ons purchased from a Flight Marketplace store, then shurely most add-on sellers would "entertain" a common DRM scheme. Mind, I'm not saying Microsoft should oblige anyone.

Steam is the closest thing to that which you demand, and it still requires that you input the individual keys.

Re-read the posts: The problem is inputting zillions of... well, I've said it before. And its not just the keys, its updates, its OK buttons that you have to be there to click. For example why do I have to again click an OK button for a license agreement if I am reinstalling that add-on? Since you require an on-line registration, why not just record the fact that I already OK'd that particular EULA once before (with date-time stamp, IP address, whatever)? You developers don't do this because it's just easier to obligate users to click that OK button because "it's just one click" when in fact it's three (approve the install path, OK the EULA, OK the end-of-install screen) and often even more. Again, for one or ten Add-Ons, no prob, man, but for more than a hundred? For example you see it is trivial to have no keys and no OK buttons to click when reinstalling add-ons when from the same developer or the same seller: For the first reinstall, ask the user to login: Then just automatically re-install (no keys, no OK buttons) all the pre-registered add-ons the user requests. Or updates. But no, it is folks like you who rather than constructively exert your brain muscle for ideas to help users to have a better all-around simming experience (simming experience includes sim ecosystem maintenance!) instead attack those users complaining about the situation while repeating the mantra of "put up with my version of DRM, button clicks and overall lack of automation regarding the maintenance of this Add-On or get lost." Ha! I know a great business model when I see one! :-)This is what steam says about Automatic Game Updates: "Hunting for patches and downloading from unorganized web sites is so twentieth-century. On Steam, your games stay up-to-date by themselves. No hassles." And Steam is talking aboud updating different games, while here were discussing components of a single game!

No software company is going to release their product unprotected to anyone. It just isn't going to happen.

Again, that's not what this thread is about. Go re-read the posts in order.

If you want your 'problem' to go away... get rid of what's actually causing your 'problem' to exist. Piracy.

I´m all ears: Please tell me as a customer how I can get rid of pirates.Cheers,- jahman.

[sluggy 3]

It is not "the key" as in only one, it is inputting many, many keys and it takes many, many hours, as I've explained previously in this thread. Which part of my explanation fails to osmose into your brain?So how many of these installs do you NEED to install in one hit? Are you going to fly every PMDG addon, followed by every Easglesoft plane in the next 24 hours? The longest SINGLE addon I have to install (and I have an immense collection) is probably RC4 (or maybe an Ultimate Terrain of some flavour) and that takes around 20 minutes.Great! I'm listening: Please share your tips for avoiding a reinstall of FSX when you can't seem to trace the source of your CTDs, lack of performance, or migration to a new operating system or a new CPU/MB so that I and others (according to you, henceforth and collectively, the "software challenged") can avoid this tedious task. We are all ears!Alright, listen up. I'd give you the wikipedia link for that, but I'm sure you'll cope. Once you've got a FSX install with your addons WITH NO TWEAKING (and sorry, you may have to spend hours and hours reinstalling stuff; hey, you bought it didn't you, so now you've got to install it) make a backup of this install. Heaps of programs out there will do this for you. Name it 'Vanilla FSX', 'Non-tweaked FSX', 'FSX that I spent hours and hours installing', etc. A helpful hint maybe is to try FSX with each addon straight after you install it. That way you can probably zoom in on the problem, instead of wondering if it was an aircraft, scenery, FSX, PC problem. This IS tedious, but it works.Now start your tweaking. Each time you make a change to the config files, back them up before the change. Basically every time you make a change make sure you can return to the last known good configuration. If everything is still OK, take another backup, naming it 'Tweaked FSX', etc.Instead of jumping into making changes, do a search here on the topic. 99 times out of a hundred someone has been there, done that before you. LEARN FROM THEM.And stop telling developers to lose any copy protection from their products. That's just not going to happen, and nor should it. :(

Cheers, SLuggy

[WarpD 824]

For me to do what you want... will cost you at the minimum of $80,000 per year.And if you think I'm joking. I'm not. The income off addons for FS don't bring in nearly the level of money that would be required to support the software integration you're demanding. To support this, each addon would cost in the $1,000s not $50 or less. Complexity of the addon would no longer impact the price as the cost of maintaining a system such as what you're demanding would impact the cost the most.So... got a deep wallet? Cuz you'll need it for this pipe dream.Oh, and regarding EULAs... lawyers dictate how that's presented and what is considered 'effective' proof that you agreed.

[Guest jahman]

So how many of these installs do you NEED to install in one hit? Are you going to fly every PMDG addon, followed by every Easglesoft plane in the next 24 hours? The longest SINGLE addon I have to install (and I have an immense collection) is probably RC4 (or maybe an Ultimate Terrain of some flavour) and that takes around 20 minutes

If I'm rebuilding my FSX ecosystem, yes, I will reinstall all the Add-Ons I have, except for any aircraft I deem sub-par and know I won't fly ever again.

Once you've got a FSX install with your addons WITH NO TWEAKING (and sorry, you may have to spend hours and hours reinstalling stuff; hey, you bought it didn't you, so now you've got to install it)

"hey, you bought it didn't you, so now you've got to install it" is EXACTLY the developer mentality that needs to change.

make a backup of this install. Heaps of programs out there will do this for you. Name it 'Vanilla FSX', 'Non-tweaked FSX', 'FSX that I spent hours and hours installing', etc. A helpful hint maybe is to try FSX with each addon straight after you install it. That way you can probably zoom in on the problem, instead of wondering if it was an aircraft, scenery, FSX, PC problem. This IS tedious, but it works.

No, it doesn't work, because I'm one of those folks that keep buying add-ons (and even if I didn't, there are updates to install), so the "base FSX with Add-Ons" you are talking about is obsolete in a month. According to you then I would have to delete all installs, load the "base install" and then re-install the add-ons I bought in the last month, then save all that as the "New Base Install". Yikes! Assuming, of course, when I save a base install that all proper registry settings and what not other DRM stuff gets saved too, otherwise the "save" is no save at all. Remember the days when DOS programs would track the disk sector a program was loaded onto? Defrag your HDD and your software got whacked. So really re-installing your ecosystem from scratch is what you need to do. It was called SysGen when I was doing it (probably before you were born), it took many hours, and of course it was fully automated. And this was with the CPU at $2K/hr of the "back then" $'s

Now start your tweaking. Each time you make a change to the config files, back them up before the change. Basically every time you make a change make sure you can return to the last known good configuration. If everything is still OK, take another backup, naming it 'Tweaked FSX', etc.

Mate, I got a life: I don't have time for these procedures, and neither do other simmers with jobs, families, and competing interests. As a developer you get paid por tinkering with FSX, but remember we customers do not.

Instead of jumping into making changes, do a search here on the topic. 99 times out of a hundred someone has been there, done that before you. LEARN FROM THEM

You think because I get CTDs I don't know what I'm doing and that I run to my FSX.xfg file and make tweaks hither and thither? Far from it, I'm extremely conservative precisely because I don't have the time and certainly don't have the will to spend 75% of my time tweaking FSX when what I want to do is just fly. You have been a developer for too long and have lost touch with the "user experience" under FSX.

And stop telling developers to lose any copy protection from their products. That's just not going to happen, and nor should it. Cheers, SLuggy

Again, reread my posts, the thread has changed with the discussion, bla, bla, etc. etc.

For me to do what you want... will cost you at the minimum of $80,000 per year. And if you think I'm joking. I'm not. The income off addons for FS don't bring in nearly the level of money that would be required to support the software integration you're demanding. To support this, each addon would cost in the $1,000s not $50 or less. Complexity of the addon would no longer impact the price as the cost of maintaining a system such as what you're demanding would impact the cost the most... So... got a deep wallet? Cuz you'll need it for this pipe dream.

Definitely overstated, or in your case maybe you are using the wrong develper tools. For example, If you are already checking your web during a customer install, then it is trivial for you to buypass presenting the EULA during a reinstall. T-r-i-v-i-a-l. And if you are NOT checking your web during a re-install, it is you who is feeding the pirates, so get on with it and include the code to check your web.

Oh, and regarding EULAs... lawyers dictate how that's presented and what is considered 'effective' proof that you agreed.

Typical of your "I've been doing it this way and, customers be damned, Im going to keep doing it this way" mentality: There is no need to keep getting customer OKs on EULAS if you word the inital EULA properly to include all potential future updates and reinstalls, etc., etc. Just try and tell me there is a way of doing business that a lawyer can't come up with the proper wording for. Again, change your mentality and use your brain muscle to come up with creative solutions so your customers will buy more rather than less of your products. For example, you don't see Microsoft pressing EULAs onto customers for maintenance updates, but only when installing new versions, i.e. new functionality. So take a hint from Microsoft and do away with EULAs for maintenance updates.Incidentally, for the both of you, the error rate of a system is porportional to the square of the number of components in a system, so if you don't stream-line the Add-On management thingy, you might find that you run into a wall were the customers have so many bugs and issues with Add-Ons that they are no longer willing or even able to manage their ecosystem, at which point you will no longer be able to sell Add-Ons not due to piracy but because the customer simply doesn't want to buy any more.Finally, see if you can pool your intellectual resources and come-up with ONE single idea that you might implement to help simmers with a large number of Add-Ons. The idea of not re-displaying the EULA is mine, so that one doesn't count. Take this management gold-nugget from one of the best-managed investments banks: In a meeting, nobody can talk-down a new idea until others have said at least seven positive things about the new idea. They implemented this rule because they realized otherwise new good ideas did not stand a chance against human intertia, as compounded further by the "corporate environment". So consider this nugget and the no-EULA-on-Re-Installs-and-Updates your takeaway from this discussion.And remember, I'm here trying to help. I am not thy enemy, I am thy paying customer. I want to buy more add-ons, but I'm having trouble managing the resulting ecosystem. You are the developers, so you are the ones who need to come-up with viable solutions to help me. For example, those of you MVPs with good links into the Flight development team ought to be talking to Microsoft to help alleviate these problems and not treating a complaining (but paying) customer like his complaint is a. unwarranted, b. can not be done anything about, or worse, c. is just the result of not being skilled enough in maintaining his ecosystem.So developers go pow-wow amongst yourselves haw this Add-On conundrum could be improved, report back and ask for feedback. We customers would be more than willing to have you sound-out your ideas with us.Cheers,- jahman.

[WarpD 824]

jahman... you really don't understand what copy protection really requires. Your thoughts that all is done is 'checking a server' is waaaaaaaay off the mark.For what you want... minimum $80,000 a year cost. A $50 addon would run about $1500. Wanna know why? Because the very first purchased copy would be pirated immediately. Your idea of a protection system offers no actual copy protection at all. Zip, zilch, nada.

[JSkorna 137]

You all just need to ignore him.

[scoob 18]

ignore him.

yep :(--

[sluggy 3]

"hey, you bought it didn't you, so now you've got to install it" is EXACTLY the developer mentality that needs to change."Now this is perhaps the most bizarre thing I've ever read.Cheers, SLuggy

[djamjjames 0]

"hey, you bought it didn't you, so now you've got to install it" is EXACTLY the developer mentality that needs to change."Now this is perhaps the most bizarre thing I've ever read.Cheers, SLuggy

Haha, that's exactly my thoughts when I first read it. I even had to scroll back up and read it again just to make sure my mind wasn't playing any tricks on me... So is he saying that when you buy it, it should instantly be installed on your system with no user input? haha :( Cheers,James

[sluggy 3]

' Remember the days when DOS programs would track the disk sector a program was loaded onto? Defrag your HDD and your software got whacked. So really re-installing your ecosystem from scratch is what you need to do. It was called SysGen when I was doing it (probably before you were born), it took many hours, and of course it was fully automated. And this was with the CPU at $2K/hr of the "back then" $'sI cut my teeth on proprietry languages (ROLM 1666B anyone?) on defence equipment in the 70s, sunshine. And noooo, nothing was automated 'back then'.And please don't make little snide comments to me when I'm trying to help you, as a smack in the mouth may offend, son.Cheers, SLuggyx-RAN

[Tom Allensworth 1,532]

OK, here's the challenge then: You name the product and then I'll post the torrent URL right back here, so we can see how great anti-piacy works. Are you up to it?Cheers,- jahman.

Do that and you will be at risk of losing your forum access. Posting links to pirated software here is a definite no-no.

[Guest jahman]

Do that and you will be at risk of losing your forum access. Posting links to pirated software here is a definite no-no

Tom, I never did and I never will.To the rest of you, thanks for listening.Cheers,- jahman.

[bendead 1,085]

- Online activation- Limited number of activation- "Offline activation" that require to have internet- Limited number of downloading (A2A shop only allow 3)- Extra Gauges to download (Concorde X)- Multiple Patch/tweak to install (Rex 2.0 before 01/19/10)- Etc ...Thanks to my AC current in Thailand varying from 210 to 250 volt, i have to change few time a year components, and format my computer.So every things above are just a pain to do... :Hmmmph:Just hope that MS Flight will have some kind of store much like the one you can find on Iphone/Ipad.Benjamin