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z4me

Defeating Pirates should not be a chore for honest buyers

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My simple solution to the download hassle-If the software or music is not on CD, Then the value is doubtful, so it's not for me!And buying on the net is a risky bet: Chances are that you'll one day, likely regret. AR

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This thread is littered with metaphors, but there's little substance. The issue here is a bigger one. . . I see it every day; people with no real interest in their craft, but a sole purpose: making money.They'll realise what an empty shell their life's been on their deathbed.

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This thread is littered with metaphors, but there's little substance. The issue here is a bigger one. . . I see it every day; people with no real interest in their craft, but a sole purpose: making money.They'll realise what an empty shell their life's been on their deathbed.
Try that with the doctor the next time you need medical aid.

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Guest jahman
As a legitimate user I understand why causal copy protection is needed.It takes such a small effort on my part to cooperate against piracy. I figure, without copy protection the complex add-ons I like just wouldn’t get made.Jahman I kind of wish you had the same scorn for pirates as you have for developers.You should also consider using more 'donationware'.This is a great system that has no keys, allows users to pay, and doesn’t restrict them in any way.For a user like yourself – this is a win-win.
Installing and registering one add-on indeed is a small effort and no one here is complaining about that.But re-installing FSX when you have hundreds of add-ons (aircraft, scenery, utilities) takes DAYS!No developper has a right to minimize such a gargantuan task!Gargantua2.jpgRemember, we pay to fly and not to re-register, re-authorize software when we need to do a reinstall.Most of us have families, you know? Try telling the missus: "Sorry, hon, can't hang with you and the kids the next few days because I have to do an FSX reinstall and getting all the add-ons re-registered/re-installed/re-whatever is going to take me days." Oh, and for max effect make sure your mother-in-law is present when you say this.So you all developpers, get yer act together to unify/streamline/automate.For example, if I have registered my software once, I should be able to re-install ALL my add-ons just like that, no keys entered anywhere at all. Maybe try and check my Microsoft LiveID or whatever. Then once you have me IDd, as I install add-on after add-on, each add-on in turn should send my LiveID to the developper's web, teurn the neccssary key and get the add-on authorized automatically.The more we simmers fly with the least hassle from CTDs, Add-on reinstall nonsense, hardware configuration issues, etc, the more fun we have. The more fun we have, the more money we spend. Not too hard to understand. Developpers, the ball is in YOUR court.This is the USER REVOLUTION: We are mad as hell and we won't take it anymore!Network12.jpg(Well, we're not thaaat mad, but it's a fun quote to cite :-)Seriously, folks, do try your best to standardize and automate. We, your paying customers, will all be grateful.Cheers,- jahman.

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Guest veeray

Ever wonder why PC games come out 6-12 months behind the consoles....if at all. Sorry the installer may take 1-10 minutes... keying in my serial only takes 20 seconds... do the math most of the time is spent on system configuration not serial hashing.

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Guest jahman
Ever wonder why PC games come out 6-12 months behind the consoles....if at all. Sorry the installer may take 1-10 minutes... keying in my serial only takes 20 seconds... do the math most of the time is spent on system configuration not serial hashing.
I don't particularly care where the three day reinstall time goes. For all I know, I should be able to come back 72 hours later and have everything reinstalled automatically. The problem with having to key in a serial whatever for most every add-on is I can't get away to to something else with my life: I am shackled to staring at that dumb install progress bar and clicking on zillions of OK buttons to say I agree with user agreements neither I nor anyone else has ever read nor intends to ever read, then endless OK buttons once each install has finished. So why can't we point the FSX installer/repairer/updater to a particular directory where we have all our software installers and have FSX install everything from there automatically? Can't be thaaat hard to do!Better yet FSWhatever should incorporate the concept of a software library where all the downloaded installers reside, then present a list with a dialog box to install, repair or update the selected add-ons, all automatically, all the while applying secret registration codes and whatnots from an encrypted registration key database, similar to what Internet Explorer has been doing since forever, so nothing new here.In today's World requiring 72 hours to do a reinstall of a software ecosystem like FSX while requiring the simmer to "standby" for serial numbers and meaningless button clicking is plain crazy. Argue all you want, you will never be able to count the number of folks that just got tired of crashing, tweaking, reinstalling and left flight simming for good. (And maybe if they hadn't the ACES team would not have been fired and we would be running FSX SP4 while we wait for Flight.)So veeray, you do the math! :-)Cheers,- jahman.

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That's your primary argument? That legitimate users have to paste in too many serial codes? That is downright lazy. If you don't want to click "OK" so many times, install fewer things. Or, create a program that does it all automatically, then distribute it freely over the internet with no DRM as you say developers should. As multiple other users have pointed out, those protections and DRM software are there to reduce piracy and at least try and return some of the developers investment. If you can't see that that is the underlying issue, why do you even purchase addons?

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That's your primary argument? That legitimate users have to paste in too many serial codes? That is downright lazy. If you don't want to click "OK" so many times, install fewer things. Or, create a program that does it all automatically, then distribute it freely over the internet with no DRM as you say developers should. As multiple other users have pointed out, those protections and DRM software are there to reduce piracy and at least try and return some of the developers investment. If you can't see that that is the underlying issue, why do you even purchase addons?
His primary argument is that developers should offer their add-ons free of charge on torrent sites and rely users volunteering to pay for them.
I therefore propose that developers themselves put their products free ofcharge on torrent servers, together with a URL where honest users like me(100% of software paid for) can pay for the software we use.

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That's your primary argument? That legitimate users have to paste in too many serial codes? That is downright lazy. If you don't want to click "OK" so many times, install fewer things. Or, create a program that does it all automatically, then distribute it freely over the internet with no DRM as you say developers should. As multiple other users have pointed out, those protections and DRM software are there to reduce piracy and at least try and return some of the developers investment. If you can't see that that is the underlying issue, why do you even purchase addons?
Yes you do have a very valid point, why purchase ADD-ONS if you cant use them? I know I wont and if others are having the same problems as I , then they would be smart not to purchase anything else until these problems are fixed. I mean why whats the point? To buy something you cant use?

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His primary argument is that developers should offer their add-ons free of charge on torrent sites and rely users volunteering to pay for them.
It's also very informative that he's yet to respond to my challenge: risk his $10+ thousand dollar investment on such a scheme, then be honest enough to eat the resulting crow when it fails miserably.

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Hey, Mr. Informative, see how well *your* DRM works: 6,320 hits on Google for the search string "eaglesoft cessna citation x" plus another word that rhymes with "current" Great DRM, man! :-) Q.E.D. Plus, they way you talk to me you forget I put real money in your company's pocket. Show some respect, even if you disagree.Cheers,- jahman.
Ah... so now you're advertising for the pirates. Not very respectful of you.

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You are the lazy one, for you only quote the part of my post that suits your argumentative needs. The idea I propose is a good one, so you might want to build on that, rather than inanely stating thay I am lazy. Any software ecosystem that requires hundreds of serial numbers to be re-input as part of a re-install is insane, and most everyone relizes that.
Any software ecosystem that is comprised of different programs by different developers is going to need different serials, and will never operate together. Try reinstalling Aftereffects, then Sony Vegas. Programs that work well together, but need different serials.
I would, unfortunately many years have gone by since I last programmed. But others do code complex programs and give them away for free, for example FS Recorder.
FSRecorder is an awesome program, however, a fully modeled aircraft or scenery is a completely different animal. Aircraft/scenery require the underlying code on top of a working 3d model with textures which is considerably more work. Those who do put out quality freeware aircraft and scenery are awesome for what they contribute to the community. (Not that FSRecorder isn't awesome)
Maybe I do see the underlying issue, except I see it differently than you. Heck, Amazon also sees the underlying issue my way, for it sells zillions of downloadable songs in DRM-less MP3 format. Are you implying Amazon also fails to see the underlying issue?
Comparing the digital music industry to the FS industry doesn't work. The digital music industry is, well, massive, no matter how you look at it. The ability to transfer files is pinnacle to success, and the RIAA has the resources to sue people who pirate their files (Look at LimeWire or most major colleges), which is something most FS developers can't say.
For your education and enlightnment, I purchase add-ons because I don't believe in stealing and I want money to flow to developers so they make more Add-Ons that I can enjoy.
I therefore propose that developers themselves put their products free ofcharge on torrent servers, together with a URL where honest users like me(100% of software paid for) can pay for the software we use.
Your quote. You want money to flow to developers, bu you are willing to give people the legal option of not paying for the software. That would likely chop off *most* cash flow to developers. (See example below)
What I am saying is that DRM doesn't work (see my reply to n4gix below) and only penalizes paying customers of add-ons like me, and that when we dare to complain about the overhead of DRM we get the .rap beaten out of us by ungrateful developers.
People who I talk to regularly tend to pirate everything they possibly can. There is one addon that they wanted, which they were unable to crack (Fly the Maddog), and guess what? Leonardo got 3 more sales. Good DRM works. Crappy DRM does nothing but produce this argument.

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Guest jahman
Any software ecosystem that is comprised of different programs by different developers is going to need different serials, and will never operate together. Try reinstalling Aftereffects, then Sony Vegas. Programs that work well together, but need different serials.
Exactly, it is a lot easier for developers to stuff DRM-du-jour down loyal customers throats than it is for them to get their act together and with or without Microsoft develop an add-on-store as I proposed above.
FSRecorder is an awesome program, however, a fully modeled aircraft or scenery is a completely different animal. Aircraft/scenery require the underlying code on top of a working 3d model with textures which is considerably more work. Those who do put out quality freeware aircraft and scenery are awesome for what they contribute to the community. (Not that FSRecorder isn't awesome)
By now in the discussion you should have realized the bigggest problem is not the keys themselves (nobody objects to the keys per se) but the time involved in administering the multitude of keys and then feeding them in one-by-one which means (again) you can't go and do something else for hours on end.
Comparing the digital music industry to the FS industry doesn't work. The digital music industry is, well, massive, no matter how you look at it. The ability to transfer files is pinnacle to success, and the RIAA has the resources to sue people who pirate their files (Look at LimeWire or most major colleges), which is something most FS developers can't say.
Oh, and the RIAA really stopped people from pirating music! ROTFLMAO! Sure music sales are more massive, but last time I checked I didn't see an add-on developer spending millions just to promote his add-on. Did you? The numbers are larger but on both sides of the equation, and the RIAA has hurt the music industry big-time because it convinced the studios DRM was the way to go, thus in the process teaching millions of kids and adults to steal music because back then buying music legally for a buck a song was not available. The parallels at different price points and costs with the FSX add-on market are valid, even thought the music and add-on markets are not "identical". In each case the industry thought DRM was the Holy Grail to keep revenues safe when it clearly wasn't.
Your quote. You want money to flow to developers, bu you are willing to give people the legal option of not paying for the software. That would likely chop off *most* cash flow to developers. (See example below)
Your confusion stems from the fact that you think that DRM will keep folks from stealing software, when it doesn't. It only gives developers an elegant way of treating your good paying customers as if they were potential thieves. We customers know it, and we feel it.
People who I talk to regularly tend to pirate everything they possibly can. There is one addon that they wanted, which they were unable to crack (Fly the Maddog), and guess what? Leonardo got 3 more sales. Good DRM works. Crappy DRM does nothing but produce this argument.
Great! I just did the same search as before on that aircraft and got back 200% MORE links! I could be flying that aircraft right now with the second link listed, thanks to Google's way or ranking links. Keep feeding me add-ons, I'll keep searching with Google. Get it into your head: DRM DOES NOT WORK! Every developer requiring customers to include order numbers in their forum signatures is telling you DRM does not work!No point really continuing this thread unless you and other folks (developers and users) want to contribute constructively on how to work with or without Microsoft to set-up an Add-On Store to manage (download/register/update/install/uninstall) all your Add-Ons automatically.If John Lennon had been a simmer, he woud have said:Imagine there's no DRM, It's easy if you try,No hell below us,Above us only sky.Imagine all the people,Installing Add-Ons today.Imagine there's no piracy,It isn't hard to do,Nothing to kill or die for,And no security keys too.Imagine all the Add-Ons,Running FSX in peace.You may say that I'm a dreamer,But I'm not the only one.I hope someday you'll join us,And the simworld will be as one.Cheers,- jahman.

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No one's going to make what you want. No single 'store'. Isn't going to happen. To be brutally blunt, your opinion just isn't that important in this regard and has almost no impact if ignored. On the other hand, having no DRM has a massive impact on a software developer. Here's what DRM does for the developer: Increases revenue stream. If you can't figure out how, then you truly don't understand the purpose of software protection.I personally am concerned with your extensive knowledge in obtaining illegal software. However, if you want DRM to go away... then do the right thing: get rid of places that advocate/support/promote software theft. Instead of attacking those who would protect themselves from thieves... try attacking the true cause of your concerns, the thieves.

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No offense, but I can't see the purpose of this topic...I use the car alarm, I have my house monitored, I have my office accessed via biometric devices, I have a locker in the basement.... And so on. Why? Because of thieves. Pirate is the same as thief, but people get used to it and no one of You are mumbling, when You have to carry pounds of keys, replace some of them from time to time, change batteries for car alarm and so on.It's life... That's the people!

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No offense, but I can't see the purpose of this topic...I use the car alarm, I have my house monitored, I have my office accessed via biometric devices, I have a locker in the basement.... And so on. Why? Because of thieves. Pirate is the same as thief, but people get used to it and no one of You are mumbling, when You have to carry pounds of keys, replace some of them from time to time, change batteries for car alarm and so on.It's life... That's the people!
True Dat....But it is amazing how when the Car Alarm or House Alarm goes off.....no one cares anyways. I'd rather not worry about any of it. Also consider that the most pirated software developer in the history of Computers is also the wealthiest developer in the history of computers. Bill Gates has had his software pirated since back when he was developing software in the Altair. In his beginning most of his stuff was pirated before he could get it to market. And probably most people on here has had a pirate copy of MS Office or Windows at sometime in the past 10 or 20 years…..That's life.

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You have to put the key in ONCE when you install or reinstall. Big bloody deal. Brush up on your software maintenance and backup skills, then you won't have to reinstall the whole shmozzle when you 'experiment' and royally root your system.If looking after software keys or codes is too hard, well maybe you need another hobby. Cheers, SLuggy

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"Also consider that the most pirated software developer in the history of Computers is also the wealthiest developer in the history of computers. Bill Gates has had his software pirated since back when he was developing software in the Altair."That's true, but Microsoft probably made the bulk of their money from pre-installed Windows on new PCs. Nevertheless people do buy OEM copies on disk; my last PC was a recycled office machine with a clean HD, and currently runs a purchased copy of XP. LIkewise my previous machine, which ran OEM Win98.As far as back-ups are concerned, the simplest option might be to buy an external USB drive, now they aren't too expensive, and mirror your main drive on that once a week or so, or if you plan doing anything that might corrupt or destroy installed software.

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Guest veeray

Yup and there was even a time when businesses "shared" copies of Microsoft software among all their PC.. you don't see that anymore.

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Guest jahman
No one's going to make what you want. No single 'store'. Isn't going to happen. To be brutally blunt, your opinion just isn't that important in this regard and has almost no impact if ignored. On the other hand, having no DRM has a massive impact on a software developer. Here's what DRM does for the developer: Increases revenue stream. If you can't figure out how, then you truly don't understand the purpose of software protection.
Um, like the thread moved on a while back from no DRM at all to... well, you can read it yourself back up there.
I personally am concerned with your extensive knowledge in obtaining illegal software.
My point exactly about DRM: Do two (as in on, then another) Google searches and you're a DRM expert! That's all it took for you to consider that I have "extensive knowledge in obtaining illegal software": 2 measly Google searches...
However, if you want DRM to go away... then do the right thing: get rid of places that advocate/support/promote software theft.
And how do you propose I do that?
Instead of attacking those who would protect themselves from thieves... try attacking the true cause of your concerns, the thieves.
Why should I attack anyone? As a paying customer, I do have the right, though, to protest to developers that for large installations of FSX with many add-ons the current system is (read previous posts).
You have to put the key in ONCE when you install or reinstall. Big bloody deal. Brush up on your software maintenance and backup skills, then you won't have to reinstall the whole shmozzle when you 'experiment' and royally root your system.
It is not "the key" as in only one, it is inputting many, many keys and it takes many, many hours, as I've explained previously in this thread. Which part of my explanation fails to osmose into your brain?
If looking after software keys or codes is too hard, well maybe you need another hobby.
Great! I'm listening: Please share your tips for avoiding a reinstall of FSX when you can't seem to trace the source of your CTDs, lack of performance, or migration to a new operating system or a new CPU/MB so that I and others (according to you, henceforth and collectively, the "software challenged") can avoid this tedious task. We are all ears!Cheers,- jahman.

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If you are unwilling to deal with the copy protection, your only recourse is to never purchase commercial software of any kind ever again. Not one company is going to even remotely entertain your expectations of one installer for all software.Steam is the closest thing to that which you demand, and it still requires that you input the individual keys. No software company is going to release their product unprotected to anyone. It just isn't going to happen.If you want your 'problem' to go away... get rid of what's actually causing your 'problem' to exist. Piracy.

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If you are unwilling to deal with the copy protection, your only recourse is to never purchase commercial software of any kind ever again.
I am willing to deal with it but I will also complain about it.....Just like I'll complain about filing taxes or the government. That is in my nature as an Irishmen.I store my FSX purchases over 3 hardrives and file away the reinstall codes in safe places. But the pirate copies are out there anyways so it is all for nothing. That is my complaint. I agree....Steam is the best system out there so hopefully this next MS Flight uses something like that and allow third party developers on board with distribution.

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Guest jahman
If you are unwilling to deal with the copy protection
Re-read my posts, that's not really what I'm saying.
your only recourse is to never purchase commercial software of any kind ever again.
No, I might just buy less rather than more. Is that what you want? Stop painting the situation as only black or white.
Not one company is going to even remotely entertain your expectations of one installer for all software.
Well, suppose Microsoft restricted Flight to add-ons purchased from a Flight Marketplace store, then shurely most add-on sellers would "entertain" a common DRM scheme. Mind, I'm not saying Microsoft should oblige anyone.
Steam is the closest thing to that which you demand, and it still requires that you input the individual keys.
Re-read the posts: The problem is inputting zillions of... well, I've said it before. And its not just the keys, its updates, its OK buttons that you have to be there to click. For example why do I have to again click an OK button for a license agreement if I am reinstalling that add-on? Since you require an on-line registration, why not just record the fact that I already OK'd that particular EULA once before (with date-time stamp, IP address, whatever)? You developers don't do this because it's just easier to obligate users to click that OK button because "it's just one click" when in fact it's three (approve the install path, OK the EULA, OK the end-of-install screen) and often even more. Again, for one or ten Add-Ons, no prob, man, but for more than a hundred? For example you see it is trivial to have no keys and no OK buttons to click when reinstalling add-ons when from the same developer or the same seller: For the first reinstall, ask the user to login: Then just automatically re-install (no keys, no OK buttons) all the pre-registered add-ons the user requests. Or updates. But no, it is folks like you who rather than constructively exert your brain muscle for ideas to help users to have a better all-around simming experience (simming experience includes sim ecosystem maintenance!) instead attack those users complaining about the situation while repeating the mantra of "put up with my version of DRM, button clicks and overall lack of automation regarding the maintenance of this Add-On or get lost." Ha! I know a great business model when I see one! :-)This is what steam says about Automatic Game Updates: "Hunting for patches and downloading from unorganized web sites is so twentieth-century. On Steam, your games stay up-to-date by themselves. No hassles." And Steam is talking aboud updating different games, while here were discussing components of a single game!
No software company is going to release their product unprotected to anyone. It just isn't going to happen.
Again, that's not what this thread is about. Go re-read the posts in order.
If you want your 'problem' to go away... get rid of what's actually causing your 'problem' to exist. Piracy.
I´m all ears: Please tell me as a customer how I can get rid of pirates.Cheers,- jahman.

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It is not "the key" as in only one, it is inputting many, many keys and it takes many, many hours, as I've explained previously in this thread. Which part of my explanation fails to osmose into your brain?So how many of these installs do you NEED to install in one hit? Are you going to fly every PMDG addon, followed by every Easglesoft plane in the next 24 hours? The longest SINGLE addon I have to install (and I have an immense collection) is probably RC4 (or maybe an Ultimate Terrain of some flavour) and that takes around 20 minutes.Great! I'm listening: Please share your tips for avoiding a reinstall of FSX when you can't seem to trace the source of your CTDs, lack of performance, or migration to a new operating system or a new CPU/MB so that I and others (according to you, henceforth and collectively, the "software challenged") can avoid this tedious task. We are all ears!Alright, listen up. I'd give you the wikipedia link for that, but I'm sure you'll cope. Once you've got a FSX install with your addons WITH NO TWEAKING (and sorry, you may have to spend hours and hours reinstalling stuff; hey, you bought it didn't you, so now you've got to install it) make a backup of this install. Heaps of programs out there will do this for you. Name it 'Vanilla FSX', 'Non-tweaked FSX', 'FSX that I spent hours and hours installing', etc. A helpful hint maybe is to try FSX with each addon straight after you install it. That way you can probably zoom in on the problem, instead of wondering if it was an aircraft, scenery, FSX, PC problem. This IS tedious, but it works.Now start your tweaking. Each time you make a change to the config files, back them up before the change. Basically every time you make a change make sure you can return to the last known good configuration. If everything is still OK, take another backup, naming it 'Tweaked FSX', etc.Instead of jumping into making changes, do a search here on the topic. 99 times out of a hundred someone has been there, done that before you. LEARN FROM THEM.And stop telling developers to lose any copy protection from their products. That's just not going to happen, and nor should it. :(
Cheers, SLuggy

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For me to do what you want... will cost you at the minimum of $80,000 per year.And if you think I'm joking. I'm not. The income off addons for FS don't bring in nearly the level of money that would be required to support the software integration you're demanding. To support this, each addon would cost in the $1,000s not $50 or less. Complexity of the addon would no longer impact the price as the cost of maintaining a system such as what you're demanding would impact the cost the most.So... got a deep wallet? Cuz you'll need it for this pipe dream.Oh, and regarding EULAs... lawyers dictate how that's presented and what is considered 'effective' proof that you agreed.

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