Defeating Pirates should not be a chore for honest buyers

[mgh 89]

Haha, that's exactly my thoughts when I first read it. I even had to scroll back up and read it again just to make sure my mind wasn't playing any tricks on me... So is he saying that when you buy it, it should instantly be installed on your system with no user input? haha :( Cheers,James

He's saying you shouldn't have to buy it. You should be able to take it and only pay later if you're honest.

I therefore propose that developers themselves put their products free ofcharge on torrent servers, together with a URL where honest users like me(100% of software paid for) can pay for the software we use.

It's such a brilliant and well thought out concept that I really can't why others haven't adopted it. Shops could just put their goods out for people to take and pay for them later. Think of the savings in check-out staff ,equipment, and cash handling costs!

[Fido 0]

How about if they use the customer's credit card number and expire date as a serial number :(?

[n4gix 4,947]

Thanks to my AC current in Thailand varying from 210 to 250 volt, i have to change few time a year components, and format my computer.So every things above are just a pain to do... :(

Wouldn't it be less expensive in the long run to invest around $100 US on an Uninterruptable Power Supply (UPS)?I have six of 'em here (one for each computer on the network), and have zero hardware failures due to voltage spikes, voltage drops, or complete loss of power... :(

[january 19]

-------- It's such a brilliant and well thought out concept that I really can't why others haven't adopted it. Shops could just put their goods out for people to take and pay for them later. Think of the savings in check-out staff ,equipment, and cash handling costs!

Others have adopted it!Couple of years ago, had a carpet salesman in his store say to me- "Why don't you take it home and try it in your living room? Pay me later if you like it." We did and we did. I'm pretty sure we were both happy with that marketing method- even though the price tag was many times that of typical FS software.ARPS Wonder if he jotted down my license# as I drove away?

[Guest jahman]

How about if they use the customer's credit card number and expire date as a serial number :(?

Won't work because many banks let you generate single-use VANs - Virtual Account Numbers for purchases over the Web.But your idea is a good one (mixing personal info into the regigistration key) and could be adapted to inserting the credit card-holder's full name and complete billing address (which can not be changed so easily). This would help reduce piracy but alas would not help us customers manage the hundreds of Add-Ons we have.

Others have adopted it!Couple of years ago, had a carpet salesman in his store say to me- "Why don't you take it home and try it in your living room? Pay me later if you like it." We did and we did. I'm pretty sure we were both happy with that marketing method- even though the price tag was many times that of typical FS software.ARPS Wonder if he jotted down my license# as I drove away?

Exactly! And I bet the salesman didn't treat you as a potential thief.The viciousness of developers replies treating a paying customer's complaint speaks volumes of how much certain members of the Add-On industry need to learn about doing business.Developers note: Customer: The slogans "the customer is king" or "the customer is god" or "the customer is always right" indicate the importance of customers to businesses. Oh, and DRM doesn't work. Did I say that before? :-)Cheers,- jahman.

[n4gix 4,947]

Even though it's quite likely that vast majority of folks who download cracked software wouldn't have paid for it anyway......most of those same individuals willingly pay some small monthly fee to a website for the privilege of downloading cracked commercial products!What's really the most galling to me, is that the "freeloaders" aren't the real problem, it's the b*tards who crack things to begin with, and the ones who run the websites and/or servers who profit from their modest "monthly fees." Consider just one example of an FSX release that at the time I checked had a total of 17,000+ downloads from one such site. At the $9.95/mo charge, that's close to $170,000! :( That same FSX release had a total of 640 legitimate sales on that same day. At $36.95, the developer received gross sales of only $23,648. After expenses net earnings were around $7,800 or thereabouts... :( Now, who did all the work, and who's making the real money?

[january 19]

Even though it's quite likely that vast majority of folks who download cracked software wouldn't have paid for it anyway...-----------What's really the most galling to me, is that the "freeloaders" aren't the real problem, it's the b*tards who crack things to begin with, and the ones who run the websites and/or servers who profit from their modest "monthly fees." -----------Consider just one example of an FSX release that at the time I checked had a total of 17,000+ downloads from one such site. At the $9.95/mo charge, that's close to $170,000! :(

Fr Bill-What we don't know is how many of those 17,000 downloads were ever actually used or flown by a simmer. More likely they were downloaded to demonstrate computer savvy and for the thrill- a bit like smoking a cigarette behind the barn in my day.My guess is that 98% of those downloads were never actually flown- but rather shown off to pals and girlfriends as proof of their teenage testosterone. Even more satisfying if you can get the adults all upset over it! Like illegal drag racing!!(at almost 80, I can honestly say "My, that was a long time ago!".)AR

[WarpD 824]

Developers note: Customer: The slogans "the customer is king" or "the customer is god" or "the customer is always right" indicate the importance of customers to businesses.

Those are slogans to entice customers. They aren't reality one bit. Hasn't ever been that way. Customers who believe that 'mantra' tend to be the ones who end up costing a business far, far more than was actually netted from the sale(s).So... sorry, but you're sorely misinformed... again.As for DRM... sure it works. If done well, it 'pays for itself'. Nothing, absolutely nothing is uncrackable. That goal is an impossible one. However, making the crack difficult will pay for itself. I know, I have vast experience in dealing with making life a living nightmare for a cracker. I believe my last protected project took well over a year to be cracked. Ask anyone who is in the business... that's an impressive amount of time for an FS addon to go uncracked.

[JSkorna 137]

Here you are:http://positivesharing.com/2006/07/why-the-customer-is-always-right-results-in-bad-customer-service/

[Guest veeray]

As for DRM... sure it works. If done well, it 'pays for itself'. Nothing, absolutely nothing is uncrackable. That goal is an impossible one. However, making the crack difficult will pay for itself. I know, I have vast experience in dealing with making life a living nightmare for a cracker. I believe my last protected project took well over a year to be cracked. Ask anyone who is in the business... that's an impressive amount of time for an FS addon to go uncracked.

Quite honestly we should go to a usb key/dongle system. And enforce reactivation every 6-12. Very effective but costs roughly $40 bucks per peson. But if this one key was shared among the developers such as PMDG/ORBx and anyone else who wanted in it wouldn't be so bad. The only drawback is if you crack one addon/key the rest of them fall too. Laminar was using a dongle for awhile but they dropped it due to upfront cost.

[Guest jahman]

Those are slogans to entice customers. They aren't reality one bit. Hasn't ever been that way. Customers who believe that 'mantra' tend to be the ones who end up costing a business far, far more than was actually netted from the sale(s).

Only if you take those phrases literally. You are supposed to listen, in earnest, to your customer complaints because you will learn a lot more about the problems and shortfalls of your products from your complaining customers than you ever will from the paid minions that work for you. Your customer complaints are a gold mine of information, and "that" is what "the customer is always right" means to an experienced, successful businessman operating in consumer markets. "The customer is always right" has never meant throwing your business out the window; that would be a literal interpretation. So in this thread you ARE having customer complaints. Managing an FSX ecosytem with a hundred Add-Ons IS a problem. Better listen to your customers instead of always trying to be right (and even if you are right, as a businessman you should always defer to your customer being right, of course then do as you please).

As for DRM... sure it works. If done well, it 'pays for itself'. Nothing, absolutely nothing is uncrackable.

Indeed, DVDs, Blu-Rays, iPhones, etc.

That goal is an impossible one. However, making the crack difficult will pay for itself. I know, I have vast experience in dealing with making life a living nightmare for a cracker. I believe my last protected project took well over a year to be cracked. Ask anyone who is in the business... that's an impressive amount of time for an FS addon to go uncracked.

ROTFL if protection for one year is the best DRM can do for your Add-On! So just wait 6 months on average for an Add-On crack and that's it! And remember, thanks to Google all it takes is one single crack to be successful and your DRM is toast. Sounds like the Maginot Line: Great in theory, very expensive and totally useless in practice (how long did the germans take to invade the north of France?)In the meantime all of us repeat, loyal, paying customers who usually buy your Add-Ons within a month or two after release and provide your company with cashflow and earnings have to put up with silly bothersome irksome DRM (and no Add-On Manager!), and get abused for protesting when our add-ons become unmanageable (with or without DRM).

Here you are: http://positivesharing.com/2006/07/why-the-customer-is-always-right-results-in-bad-customer-service/

Great link showing exactly how to misinterpret customer support guidelines. Good customer treatment does not mean subjecting your employees to customer or management abuse, it means listening, deciding, solving, improving.

Quite honestly we should go to a usb key/dongle system.

Dongles don't work either, are expensive and they can be a headache for customer support. If dongles worked, Microsoft and other large software houses that sell lots of volume would have required dongles for their operating system so that dongles would be included on a chip on each motherboard, or even included in the CPU itself a long time ago. Anybody remember the Trusted Platform initiative?

And enforce reactivation every 6-12.

Or more often, say every 5 hours of flight, or whatever scheme is most appropriate, as long as activation is automatic. Developers, for all I care, you can all go play with DRM if that makes you feel secure and happy, but...What we customers need, to manage large FSX ecosystems, is for all this DRM stuff to happen transparently and automatically after we register the product with you the first time we use it. No nothing at all when we reinstall, so we can update or reinstall all Add-Ons automatically as needed, just don't make us sit at our PCs clicking literally hundreds of stupid EULA OK and Install OK buttons and entering activation codes all day long. Developers, are you listening?So developers, go pow-wow and crack your heads to come-up with more creative soultions to stop piracy and to help your customers manage their FSX installations (two separate, but related problems.)Here, as a customer, are a few ideas:1. Stop spending large amounts of time and money trying to stop the dedicated cracker, as you will fail anyway.2. Instead, implement cheap and easy for you to manage DRM to thwart the casual thief.3. Spend the time and money instead on making your add-on easier to manage: a. Only ask for keys for a first-time install b. Only ask for EULA OKs for a first-time install c. When your customer installs your Add-On, if he is a repeat customer then pre-fill the registration fields with this his name, address, telephone number, email, whatever. Never treat a repeat customer as if he were a first timer! 4. Use heuristics to detect simmers likely stealing Add-Ons in a central database managed by the "FSX Add-On Anti-Piracy Group" that all of you will fund via a percentage of your sales. Once a thief has been ID'd, you could disable the Add-On, make it run slower, mangle the air config file if an aircraft and, why not, even press charges against a few in very public cases for effect. (Avoid suing grannies and 3-year-olds, the PR backlash is severe.)5. Well, if you had an automated Add-On Installer to manage all Add-Ons, once you detected a thief you could un-install all Add-Ons! So there you have another reason to automate Add-On management :-)But this is just me, a "user", likely not the best source of specific ideas. You are the ones who would know how to do this a lot better.Oh, and I am giving you all these ideas for free, no DRM at all, no registration, so I guess I will never see a dime from this, not even a measly Add-On bone thrown my way? (hint! hint!)Cheers,- jahman.

[WarpD 824]

1 - Logistically impossible.2 - Not cost effective.3 - Not legally secure.You have absolutely no idea what it takes to protect software. None. After you've released a commercial product with your income on the line, then come back and talk. You see, I've been 'listening'... but you haven't. Therein lies the main problem. You're not hearing what you want to hear... so you're effectively going "la, la, la, la! I can't hear you!"As for your 'list':

1. Stop spending large amounts of time and money trying to stop the dedicated cracker, as you will fail anyway.

Actually, the current methods are significantly cheaper than any idea(s) you've offered up.

2. Instead, implement cheap and easy for you to manage DRM to thwart the casual thief.

We already are implementing the lesser expensive DRM. It's effective against most pirates.

3. Spend the time and money instead on making your add-on easier to manage:

Um... you really don't know what you're discussing.

a. Only ask for keys for a first-time install

Such items are hardware locked and absolutely must be asked for during each install.

b. Only ask for EULA OKs for a first-time install

Legally speaking, if we fail to present the EULA each and every time, you can then claim that you did not agree to any such thing. It's happened.

c. When your customer installs your Add-On, if he is a repeat customer then pre-fill the registration fields with this his name, address, telephone number, email, whatever. Never treat a repeat customer as if he were a first timer!

Prison-time offense in certain countries of the EU. Just flat out a bad, bad, bad, bad, oh did I mention bad idea?

4. Use heuristics to detect simmers likely stealing Add-Ons in a central database managed by the "FSX Add-On Anti-Piracy Group" that all of you will fund via a percentage of your sales. Once a thief has been ID'd, you could disable the Add-On, make it run slower, mangle the air config file if an aircraft and, why not, even press charges against a few in very public cases for effect. (Avoid suing grannies and 3-year-olds, the PR backlash is severe.)

Yeah, not going to happen. The process is used in antivirus and has resulted in quite a few false positives. The liability for making a false claim of piracy is not worth the risk. As for actually pressing charges... you can only sue. A very, very expensive process.

5. Well, if you had an automated Add-On Installer to manage all Add-Ons, once you detected a thief you could un-install all Add-Ons! So there you have another reason to automate Add-On management :-)

That would be fraud. If they had legitimate addons that they purchased removed... that would be fraud.

[Guest jahman]

VSIM FORUM - DRM Discussion---------------------------

...

As the Quote functionality doesn't seem to be working, my replies in italics and apologies to all readers.You have absolutely no idea what it takes to protect software. None. After you've released a commercial product with your income on the line, then come back and talk. You see, I've been 'listening'... but you haven't. Therein lies the main problem. You're not hearing what you want to hear... so you're effectively going "la, la, la, la! I can't hear you!"Well, all I can say I can find any cracked Add-on I want just by googling, so maybe you don't know much about DRM either, or, DRM doesn't work, take your pick. We seem to be going in circles here.As for who's hearing who, check the thread so far: The OP started the thread complaining Add-Ons were becoming unmanageable and not one developer so far has echoed that sentiment (a manifestation of empathy, in turn, a basic trait of humanity) instead complaints have been minimized and the antagonism and hostility has been palpable. As for your 'list':Quote1. Stop spending large amounts of time and money trying to stop the dedicated cracker, as you will fail anyway.Actually, the current methods are significantly cheaper than any idea(s) you've offered up. Not sure how to interpret your reply in the context of my suggestion.Quote2. Instead, implement cheap and easy for you to manage DRM to thwart the casual thief.We already are implementing the lesser expensive DRM. It's effective against most pirates.Great! I am truly glad were able to meet on this one, and that you have a cost-effective solution.Quote3. Spend the time and money instead on making your add-on easier to manage:Um... you really don't know what you're discussing.No, I really do. I've architected significant systems spanning the government-private sector barrier and have been key in designing the legal underpinnings that validate how the system works. So I actually do know what I'm talking about.Quotea. Only ask for keys for a first-time installSuch items are hardware locked and absolutely must be asked for during each install.Are you saying there is some technical impediment to, for example, storing the activation keys (encrypted or not) in the registry for future use, as during a reinstall?Quoteb. Only ask for EULA OKs for a first-time installLegally speaking, if we fail to present the EULA each and every time, you can then claim that you did not agree to any such thing. It's happened.Again, Microsoft constantly pushes updates down to millions of PCs world-wide (150 different countries, 150 different legal jurisdictions!) without requiring user EULA OKs, so evidently it is possible. If Microsoft can do it, so can you. As I suggested, don't ask for EULA OKs when updating an Add-On or when the user Re-Installs the Add-On, but do ask for a EULA OK if a major version update.Quotec. When your customer installs your Add-On, if he is a repeat customer then pre-fill the registration fields with this his name, address, telephone number, email, whatever. Never treat a repeat customer as if he were a first timer!Prison-time offense in certain countries of the EU. Just flat out a bad, bad, bad, bad, oh did I mention bad idea?OK, fair enough, I didn't know that, thanks for pointing it out. But I presume treating a repeat customer with some deference that values his comercial loyalty s legal (something you can easily check on-line during registration).Quote4. Use heuristics to detect simmers likely stealing Add-Ons in a central database managed by the "FSX Add-On Anti-Piracy Group" that all of you will fund via a percentage of your sales. Once a thief has been ID'd, you could disable the Add-On, make it run slower, mangle the air config file if an aircraft and, why not, even press charges against a few in very public cases for effect. (Avoid suing grannies and 3-year-olds, the PR backlash is severe.)Yeah, not going to happen. The process is used in antivirus and has resulted in quite a few false positives. The liability for making a false claim of piracy is not worth the risk. As for actually pressing charges... you can only sue. A very, very expensive process.You as a developer know the heuristics best, but I would suspect if you found someone sharing your Add-On with a registration key (no DRM crack here!) and you traced the registration key back to a particular customer, you would have a pretty strong case.Quote5. Well, if you had an automated Add-On Installer to manage all Add-Ons, once you detected a thief you could un-install all Add-Ons! So there you have another reason to automate Add-On management :-)That would be fraud. If they had legitimate addons that they purchased removed... that would be fraud. Not necessarily! It depends on how you word the EULA, and there is a very powerful legal precedent: That's exactly how the Blu-Ray DRM license works. If the master key to your brand/model of Blu-Ray player is compromised, the Blu-Ray consortium can permanently disable your Blu-Ray drive just like that (revoke your player's decryption keys), and do so remotely over the web, and you will no longer be able to view the Blu-Ray titles you legally purchased. Two things to point out here: 1. You didn't do anything wrong, just some bloke on Mars cracked the key to your brand/model of Blu-Ray player and zap! ALL players in that category are toast world-wide, and 2. (and this is a case of best for last), you didn't even sign any EULA! I'm not saying the Blu-Ray folks will make many friends with these sorts of tactics, but if they can legally zap the hardware of innocents they have never signed a contract with, then I'm sure you can find a lawyer that can redact a EULA that will let you zap your Add-On, and if all developpers get together into some sort of an RIAA-type consortium, you might legally be able to zap all Add-Ons on that particular thieveing slimy simmer's machine. And remember, a false positive isn't that big a deal because... you have automatic non-attended reinstaller of all add-ons! Right? :-)Cheers,- jahman.

[bendead 1,085]

Wouldn't it be less expensive in the long run to invest around $100 US on an Uninterruptable Power Supply (UPS)?

i spent 300 bucks all ready in Bangkok for the biggest "home series" UPS i could find, it's not powerful enough...

[mgh 89]

Others have adopted it!Couple of years ago, had a carpet salesman in his store say to me- "Why don't you take it home and try it in your living room? Pay me later if you like it." We did and we did. I'm pretty sure we were both happy with that marketing method- even though the price tag was many times that of typical FS software.ARPS Wonder if he jotted down my license# as I drove away?

I haven't fould a shop selling CDs and DVDs that allow you to take them away without paying and then pay later - have you?