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z4me

Defeating Pirates should not be a chore for honest buyers

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Guest veeray

Why would you need to do that installing a rootkit... after all you wrote a copy protection scheme that lasted 6 months longer than the Xbox 360.

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Guest jahman
The 'installation' requirements you seek would eliminate security of software licensing. Because of that, there is no way I would ever want to support your demands... and yes, they are demands.
Currently I place every add-on in it's own directory together with a text file containing the purchase confirmation email, the activation keys email and the URL I downloaded the Add-On from. Why can't that process be systematized? Windows already has a store for logon credentials, a store for public-key certificates, a store for Internet Explorer to save logon credentials for web sites. What's wrong with storing add-on activation keys? Heck, I bet CryptoAPI already has objects classes for doing all of this, and you might even be able to purchase ready-made components for managing keys securely without having to inmerse yourself in the complexities of CryptoAPI.
I'm sorry your scenery is causing you so much heartache, but it's not my problem. Nor is it any other developer's problem except PCAviator.You clearly could care less about a developer's product being stolen. Your entire attitude throughout this thread clearly shows that in your mind a developer simply doesn't have the right to do whatever it can to protect it's product because it's inconvenient for you.
Actually I do care, because If you don't make money selling your add-ons you will stop making them. What I do not care about is developers throwing out the baby with the bathwater, i.e. the idea that because you have to protect yourselves from thieves we loyal customers who buy your products have to put up with absolutely every inconvenience that you deem your needs for protection demand, as the OP said. Seems rather one-sided to me. So throw us a bone via silent re-installs and updates (remember, we have no issue with add-on registration on first install) that can be automated.
I do have a solution that would protect the developer's product adequately:1 - A system wipe if any illegal software is found by the protection process.2 - A system wipe if any attempts to crack the software's protection is detected. Total system wipe with no more installations of any software covered by this new process. Willing to risk your system to that level for a 'one-time-key' install? Because it's the only way I'd even consider supporting any of your demands.
I honestly fail to see the situation as black and white as you do, but I am open to trying to understand your point of view if you provide me with the main lines of you reasoning, and so improve the reasonableness of my suggestions.In any case, other than for cost and learning-curve reasons, I could use the SCCM - System Center Configuration Manager from Microsoft (available sincs 1994) to do a walk-away, automatic clean install of Windows, FSX and all my Add-Ons, starting with a HDD full format, and I could do it today, because that's what this tool was designed to do. But you must admit the SCCM is a bit of overkill.Can we wok together on this?Cheers,- jahman.

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What part of: "proprietary software that is provided to users without payment on a trial basis" is not clear to you?- jahman.
Where does it say "proprietary software that is provided to users without payment on a trial basis" ?
I therefore propose that developers themselves put their products free ofcharge on torrent servers, together with a URL where honest users like me(100% of software paid for) can pay for the software we use.- jahman.
stop wrigging!

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Guest jahman
Where does it say "proprietary software that is provided to users without payment on a trial basis" ?
Here, Paragraph 1, Line 1.Cheers,- jahman.

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I wonder. In the time it has taken to just read this thread, how many addons could I have installed?DRM? Flawed, it's digital. But if it doesn't inconvenience me, I don't care about it.Customers are not always right.Some of the suggestions here are getting into the Jobsian distortion reality field, I fear.

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I wonder. In the time it has taken to just read this thread, how many addons could I have installed?DRM? Flawed, it's digital. But if it doesn't inconvenience me, I don't care about it.Customers are not always right.Some of the suggestions here are getting into the Jobsian distortion reality field, I fear.
1. You are right!2. That's for sure.3. You think??

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Here, Paragraph 1, Line 1.Cheers,- jahman.
Where did you say "proprietary software that is provided to users without payment on a trial basis" in your proposal?
I therefore propose that developers themselves put their products free ofcharge on torrent servers, together with a URL where honest users like me(100% of software paid for) can pay for the software we use.
Your wriggling and intellectual dishonesty is becoming as ludicrous as your argments

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Someone made a indie games package for which you were allowed to pay as much as you want (e.g. 1 buck or 40 bucks, like a donation system), and if you bought them apart from eachother they would be a lot more expensive (depends how much you wanted to pay).Anyway, because many release groups respected that, but some guy put it on BitTorrent. That actually boosted sales (or it was due to a very slow download server, that buyers would buy it then use bittorrent to get it)Piracy boosts sales. Period.

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I also provided concrete suggestions on how this might be achieved. Here's one more: Since 2 TBy HDDs are so cheap, add-ons shipping on DVDs ought to allow for copying onto the simmers software repository HDD and allow for automated silent installation from there (except for first-time install of course).
Now here's a thought! How about taking responsibility to solve your problem(s) locally?I bought and installed a networked NAS (Network Attached Storage) device. It has a 2TB primary, and a 2TB secondary with automatic "mirroring" from the primary to the secondary.I bought and installed Acronis True Image and have it set up to make a weekly backup of both my development computer and my flightsim computer, with daily "instant incremental backups." As files are changed, the program automatically updates them on the NAS.In the event of a failure of either machine, one "click" via Acronis will initiate a complete restoration of either computer, including a complete wipe/restore of the Registry. Several hours later, I can simply reboot the restored computer, and be back to work! :(

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From MegaSceneryEarth, 200. OK, no DRM on these, but I have to feed them in one by one, clicking 200 EULA OK buttons! I have 450 entries in my scenery.cfg file. Say 3 minutes each to install, thats 200 x 3 = 600 minutes, i.e. 10 hours of clickety-click that I can't go do anything else. Add 3 hours for FS Global 2010, another 3 for FS North America (for some reason reading DVDs is really slow), 8 for REX (actual, timed), that's 24 hours, or a whole day for those add-ons alone, and if you have 2 hrs leisure time per day (and that's a lot for some these days!) then you're in for 12 days straight on these add-ons alone, so say three weeks total for all add-ons.
Yeah, this does actually sound like a nightmare to me. I’d be fit to be tied. I imagine yours is an extreme case...but it’s certainly not unrealistic. I happen to use a different set off add-ons and generally don’t have more than 6 installed at any time. So I’m an extreme case at the other end of the spectrum. You’ll get advice to reduce the number of add-ons you use...that’s not really a solution it's just a way to avoid the worst of the problem. But it’s a reasonable strategy.For the problem, as you know - the difficulty is every developer uses different tools and methods for an install. Some may be licensing technology and others may build their own entirely or in part. Getting any sort of consistency among all these small outfits would be really hard. It practically has to come down from a higher authority like MS. Nevertheless getting some add-ons to install together would be better than nothing. Like 200 EULA from one publisher is just unreasonable.Off-hand part of the solution would be for every installer to have a command-line method with arguments. This way the install command could be repeated once it was properly configured. If that was possible a tool could be made that recorded a reinstall command - once a ‘regular’ UI-install was made. In practice this might have some major roadblocks...so who knows.

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I notice no one liked my system wipe as a software protection method.Ironic and perhaps hypocritical for someone to expect developers to place their products "in harm's way" but yet aren't willing to take the same level of risk to use the products.

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JahmanHave you considered that after installing you could just make an image of your drive. And when you want to reinstall, just reload the image.edit: nvm someone already said it.

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I notice no one liked my system wipe as a software protection method.Ironic and perhaps hypocritical for someone to expect developers to place their products "in harm's way" but yet aren't willing to take the same level of risk to use the products.
I was under the impression that you were being facetious with your solution.Now you are making absurd suggestions. I understand your anger but are you really helping or offering anything new? In addition it would be illegal to do what you have suggested since you wouldn't have any legal right to destroy someone's property because they stole from you. Two wrongs do not make a right but I guess you would feel good if that happened to someone's system? Don't bother answering that last question because I know how you will answer! :( Todd

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Todd,What if the system wipe was CLEARLY stated in the license agreement? Please don't say: Well, nobody reads those anyway!

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Todd,What if the system wipe was CLEARLY stated in the license agreement? Please don't say: Well, nobody reads those anyway!
Jim:We're getting off topic here but how would that matter? I will state again two wrongs do not make a right. Just because you put that in a EULA does not necessarily make it legal. Sounds like something for the lawyers. I'm not a lawyer so I cannot comment any further on that.Todd

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I do have a solution that would protect the developer's product adequately:1 - A system wipe if any illegal software is found by the protection process.2 - A system wipe if any attempts to crack the software's protection is detected. Total system wipe with no more installations of any software covered by this new process. Willing to risk your system to that level for a 'one-time-key' install? Because it's the only way I'd even consider supporting any of your demands.
Seriously? Would this even be legal? Even if it was, I imagine that not many users would be willing to risk their entire system to install your software, thus impacting your sales. Good luck.- Martin

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Todd,What if the system wipe was CLEARLY stated in the license agreement? Please don't say: Well, nobody reads those anyway!
Jim you should clearly spend more time answering your customer email than post on a hobby forum... Talking%20Ear%20Off.gifBenjamin

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Todd,What if the system wipe was CLEARLY stated in the license agreement? Please don't say: Well, nobody reads those anyway!
I too thought the suggestion was facetious.What licence agreement would be applicable if if the software's downloaded illegally without a licence? Also, such a term would be unforceable in many countries (the UK for example) as being unfair and leave the developer open to claims for damges and possibly a criminal prosecution for malicious damage.

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Seriously? Would this even be legal? Even if it was, I imagine that not many users would be willing to risk their entire system to install your software, thus impacting your sales. Good luck.- Martin
Oh, I know... that's the whole point. Advocating that developers place their products in the public with no protection that they control is hypocritical when they're unwilling to agree to the same level of 'risk'.Developers lose a great deal of income to piracy. Without the income, there's no developer. So... as a user, you either agree to deal with the DRM... or agree that there will be no developers and thus no software. No developer is going to surrender the protection of their intellectual property.
I too thought the suggestion was facetious.What licence agreement would be applicable if if the software's downloaded illegally without a licence? Also, such a term would be unforceable in many countries (the UK for example) as being unfair and leave the developer open to claims for damges and possibly a criminal prosecution for malicious damage.
No, it's not facetious. It's proving a point. The posters want the developers to risk absolutely everything for their convenience... and yet we all know they are unwilling to actually share the risk.I will clarify one thing... 'system wipe': I mean wipe all software from the system that was covered by the protection software. You violate the license, you lose all the software covered by it. Not just one item. All of it. And yes, I do believe that is legal. You can revoke a license to use software.

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Jim you should clearly spend more time answering your customer email than post on a hobby forum... Talking%20Ear%20Off.gifBenjamin
-1

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Benjamin,You really don't want to know the details for your ASE problem posted here because it fits right in with what we are discussing.

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-1
I bought ASE today, with activation problem, so i sent an Email 14 hours ago... No answer...But time to post here...You think it's -1 but it's -49 on my bank account for a software i can't useBenjamin

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No, it's not facetious. It's proving a point. The posters want the developers to risk absolutely everything for their convenience... and yet we all know they are unwilling to actually share the risk.I will clarify one thing... 'system wipe': I mean wipe all software from the system that was covered by the protection software. You violate the license, you lose all the software covered by it. Not just one item. All of it. And yes, I do believe that is legal. You can revoke a license to use software.
If it's not facetious then it's as ludicrous as the suggestions that developer's shouldn't protect their products.Anyway, if the installler can detect an attempt to install illegal software then it can refuse to install it which would achieve your objective - I doubt you can guarantee that there would be no false positives. Wiping out other legal software would be regarded as disproportionate, malicious and leave you open the legal action.

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Benjamin,You really don't want to know the details for your ASE problem posted here because it fits right in with what we are discussing.
I know the details, but i don't know why i can't have a good support to make the soft i just bought work.

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