The U.N. and War on Terrorism

[Guest]

Well said - let's hope that many more do not have to die before both sides realised that an armed struggle is never going to get them anywhere. Look at Northern Ireland now - they still have serious problems but at least there is now some form of dialogue !!!Unfortunately deepseated religous/racial intolerance is a high hurdle to get over !!!!...

[Sonar5 3]

Braun,Please tell me which words you find offensive. If you are referring to Hypocrite. It is not a slang word, or a swear word. It is a descriptive word. The word hypocrite is used in the bible in Job 8:13, and in Matthew 6:2, 5, 16, they use hypocrisy. So you have a problem with words used in the bible.As for pathetic, that is also a descriptive word. I've seen people called a lot worse, so perhaps you can give me a list of words that would be allowed, and then I can use those.Please be more specific, since you chose to do this in the forum instead of contacting me in a more tactful appropriate way, IMHOI didn't start the name calling in this thread, and I kind of resent you calling me out and warning me in public about it. I feel you owe me an apology and then we can move on, Braun. No Hard Feelings.Can I use Loonies as in Post#7You called the Taliban Despotic, can I use that term as you did in post #8, since it means the same as tyrant. can I call people Tyrants?Can I call people despotic maniac's as you did in post #8Can I call poeple evil incarnate's as you did in post #8Can I call someone lazy as b1900 called me in Post #28 As a moderator, maybe your best course would have been to contact me privately instead of listing it in the forum. But since it appears you felt the need to WARN ME PUBLICALLY, I will also respond here, and I sent an indentical message to your inbox. And Tom's. Private message, Email, wonderful tools.Regards Braun,JoeHere is the definitiohttp://home.attbi.com/~jranos/mysig.jpg http://avsim.com/hangar/air/bfu/logo70.gif

[Sonar5 3]

I vaguely remember reading that line.I missed that one too. Who said that, as I assure you, There are many who are concerned about what others say. I may not agree with what they say around the world, but I appreciate it if it is fact driven.Thanks, Joehttp://home.attbi.com/~jranos/mysig.jpg http://avsim.com/hangar/air/bfu/logo70.gif

[Guest]

Hi Joe,You will find that little gem in number 14.......... kinda blows you away doesn't it !!!!!

[Sonar5 3]

Ooh,That is a tough one. I guess I din't see it the first time. Sherman is a good person, and he may be correct. It is one of those statements that you will never know if it is true or not.I run across a few that share the same opinions, and I don't think they don't care about what others think outside the United States, but I have a theory.Now, I am known to come into a thread and defend attacks against my country. I normally don't start the threads that go south, but if the majority of people rely on the likes of PSMNBC, CNN, etc... They will be getting a biased view, because those networks will always interview people that will do one thing.RAISE RATINGS. Which means it has to be controversial. case in point. Child abductions in this country had been decreasing. There has finally been a lot of press regardsing these cases, Until, the next story came along. It just proves my hypocrisy theory's time and time again.So when people share their views of my country, and they live overseas, I feel they should show enough respect to verify on their own what they are reading, or hearing, etc...before they come in here and spew about it.I was accused over at flightsim of only knocking postes from the UK. It was so absurd. Then no one could find a negative comment I made about that country. I only list facts.So, the same may be happening here. If a United States Citizen relies only on news from my countries press. They like many around the world, may be as uninformed as some of the posters are here.Now, I may sound arrogant, but every statement I make is based on fact. If I am wrong, Iapologize and people that have known me for a while know that.So if I ever call someone out on a statement they make, it is up to that person to prove me wrong. It Rarely happens, because most of the time, they know in their hearts that they were wrong, and they simply fade away.Well, maybe that will make them think the next tiome they hit the post button, eh..It is always about Facts and truth.Regards,Joehttp://home.attbi.com/~jranos/mysig.jpg http://avsim.com/hangar/air/bfu/logo70.gif

[Guest]

... we have certainly disagreed on a few issues - although you have never criticised the fact that I come from the UK. My views yes - but we all view things from a different perspective and on every issue there are different valid approaches !!!!

[shermank 166]

I said it and with good reason. The U.S has been the leader of the free world since the end of WWII largely by default. This country unselfishly rebuilt both Germany and Japan, the lead Agressors of the AXIS. The U.S went on to create the Berlin airlift to feed people who would have otherwise starved in the face of an agressive communist blockade. The U.S Marshall Plan is the sole reason there is a European Union today. Had it not been for American leadership, there would be only a Communist Korea, not the free Korea on the south of the peninsula. I could site other incidents of the postive force of the USA in the post war world, but you get the idea.Don't get me wrong. I love Europe, and my wife and I visit when ever we can scrape together the money for that sort of vacation. I have never run into any personal anti-Americanism, though I did come into contact with a rather snobbish French sommollier who refused to acknowledge the high quality of California wines..:-)With all of that said, America has been guilty of a certain arrogance of power, Vietnam being this nation's primary foreign policy mistake in modern times. But, overall, when it comes to doing what is right, I will stake this country's overall goals as correct. And, as for helping the helpless of this world, what other country has given so much foreign aid? As for Saddam and Iraq, why is Europe so blind to his threat. Might it be because of commercial interests and contracts? Or, is there a fear of a massive Islamic uprising and terrorism by militants who live or sneak into the EU? I can't imagine that the striped suit diplomats of the Quai D'Orsay are so naive as to believe Saddam has benevolent interests for his neighbors. There is a real politic at work here, and so far, the U.S. and Tony Blair's government in Britain seem to be the ones with the vision to understand its real meaning. Like it or not, we are now in a world of good guys and bad guys. My country is on the side of the good guys!Sherman KaplanHighland Park Il

[Sonar5 3]

Thank you for understanding that. I have a deep love and respect for the UK, and many other countries as well.I am thougtfull in my posts when defending my country, and thank you for understanding that I am critiscizing views, not countries.You see, with what I do, My integrity and honesty is my lifeline. I don't need to attack a country, I am simply defending mine. If people knew how many openenigs they gave me to retort to their tacticts of specific country attack, it would be many.I choose not to go there.Am I harsh. Sure, but only after someone else steps out and throws the first pitch. You will likely see that the posts that I do start stay on topic, provide general information and rarely head south.But the ones others start. Well... You see what happens.Some may ask what is my Goal. My only goal is a goal of understanding and truth. If someone responds civilly, I will respond civilly. But if they choose another path. Fine, I will be there to defend. And if they can't take the heat, they should have stayed on the couch instead of entering the Kitchen.Every person has the priviledge of not reading a post, not responding to a post, and hitting the alert button to notify a moderator if they feel it has gone too far.Regards,JoePS - See how nice I can be in a civil discussion. I hope some of the others read this. :-)http://home.attbi.com/~jranos/mysig.jpg http://avsim.com/hangar/air/bfu/logo70.gif

[Sonar5 3]

Hi Sherman,I think after yesterday's UN speech, a lot more countries will come on board. Even France. The theory is that if Russia votes yes, France will vote yes, and China will either vote yes, or abstain.Then they will set a new irrelevant deadline that sadaam the sandman will never be able to meet. But what if he does. :-) Than it would have been a brilliant move by Bush to force this issue that the UN has refused to address over the past few years.But my optimism is shallow, in the feeling that sadaam, I believe, will not honor the resolutions, and the first new moon in November, we will attack.You may have a valid point on your opinion, as it is one that is difficult to prove. When I challenge people at work, they always ask me for the links to what I am saying. And then they understand not only where our country is coming from, but also the others around the world.Regards,Joehttp://home.attbi.com/~jranos/mysig.jpg http://avsim.com/hangar/air/bfu/logo70.gif

[Sonar5 3]

One More, Braun,Stephan used the word Fanatics in Post #7.Is Fanatics ok to call people in this forum.Thanks,Joe

[Guest]

I did hear the results of a poll on the radio this morning that suggested that in the UK the split was 30/70 against war with Iraq, and in the US it was heading in a similar direction although not quite to the same extent. From the "noises" from the news it seems that Bush & Blair are going for the UN mandate (or as near as it will get) for domestic consumption as well as international.There was also less talk of regime change - but I am guessing that will still be right up there on the agenda even if it is mentioned less.

[Sonar5 3]

I have to disagree with you here on the poll numbers.With that said. I don't really believe in any polling numbers unless I see the sample size, etc... Any internet poll is totally wrong, since it can be subverted by anyone.Someone at flightsim had called me on a poll in the UK where he said 9 out of ten opposed war with Iraq. I asked him to prove it. He never did. I then found polling data on both The United States and the United Kingdom suggesting that the majority in Both countries favored an attack on Iraq.I'll go find that thread, and post it here, but in the meantime, I will just have to disagree with you until you can verify the source.hehehe... Found it. Rustam had printed a chart from an online poll on AOL/UK. I then found othe rpolling data suggesting something totally different and my reasoning why:Full Thread here:http://www.flightsimnetwork.com/dcforum/DCForumID2/3324.htmlIt is posts number 15 & 17.Here is a 4 September BBC Poll of 9000 people, where tha majority in Europe support attacks on Iraq.http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/2235092.stmRegards,Joe http://home.attbi.com/~jranos/mysig.jpg http://avsim.com/hangar/air/bfu/logo70.gif

[Guest]

Hi Joe,Just checked my hearing/memory in case I managed to get it wrong. The UK poll I heard about was by MORI which is a well known polling group in the UK and the statistic the BBC were quoting came up with the result of "69% of Britons say the UK should only get involved in an attack on Iraq if it has UN support " so apologies I got it slightly wrong (the memory upgrade is on order).If you want to read the full results then you can get them accuratly from the horses mouth here :: http://www.mori.co.uk/polls/2002/sep11.shtml rather than my inaccurate ramblings !!!!

[Guest]

Joe...what I have a problem with is your "tone". I offer no appology. I offer this advise. Keep the tone of your debate neutral, keep your comments from drifting into personal attacks, and you will see no more comments from me.You are correct in the fact that B1900 used the term lazy, but it was asked rhetorically, as in "are you lazy". I could have specifically called that out too I suppose, but after reading your diatribe directed at him, it seemed to pale in comparison.BTW, while I chose your post to comment on, I gave the warning to everyone, and will do so again.Everyone...keep it civil, or this thread will need to be closed down. That would be a shame in my eyes.Cheers to all,bt

[Sonar5 3]

Hi,Thanks for posting that link. That is more in line with what I have been reading. I appreciate the follow up post you made. :-)Here is the link showing actual poll results that you posted. The drill down links go to this page:http://208.141.197.179/key_findings/transa..._report.htm#kf4The thing about polls is that you can always phrase a question to predict a result. That is where bias is put in. This poll does pretty good with its actual questions.The decrease in support for Blair and Bush seems a bit suspicious, but they were taken prior to the UN speeches yesterday. It will be interesting to see the follow up polls of those that either read or listened to the speeches.Regards,Joehttp://home.attbi.com/~jranos/mysig.jpg http://avsim.com/hangar/air/bfu/logo70.gif