just my two cents...

[Guest]

"Liberty is the most precious gift we offer our citizens." Could Tom Ridge have said anything scarier or more telling as he accepted the post of homeland security czar? Trying to strike the bell of liberty, he sounds its death knell, depicting government not as the agent of the people's will, but as an imperious power with the authority to give us our democratic freedoms. Which means, of course, that it can also take them away. That's exactly what Ashcroft, Bush, Cheney & co. have been up to all year as, in the attorney general's words, the government has marshaled the might of "every available statute" to root out "the terrorists among us." Wrapping themselves in the flag, they have shredded the Constitution. They have sneered at, ignored, or defied the courts and legislatures that are designed to provide checks and balances on uninhibited executive power. They have eroded the precious Bill of Rights protections of free speech, assembly, and association and its assurances of privacy, due process, equal protection, legal counsel, and a fair trial--practically everything but the right to bear arms. Thanks to these maneuvers in the name of combating terrorism, the government can now freeze the release of public records, monitor political and religious gatherings, and jail Americans indefinitely without trial and without legal representation. As Bush and Cheney ready the country for war against Iraq, they have established a climate that stifles dissent--and put laws in place enabling them to clamp down on those who ask too many questions. I thought it was your democratic right, free speech ?For those wanting to read the rest of thishttp://truthout.org/docs_02/09.13D.solomon.fire.htm

[Guest Paul_W]

>I would only say that to include film titles in any serious >intercourse shows outstanding ignorance. Unfortunately your sweeping statement is what's ignorant here; I'll get back to it in a second....>The US have absolutely zero credibility when it comes to producing films that purport to protray significant historic events.Look, vast numbers of US films are definitely "less than engaging." I find it hard to select a title that's going to be worth watching when we go into a video shop; I much prefer a decent documentary. Having said that I think the "Thirteen Days" film did a fine job of bringing the confusion and urgency of the Cuban Missile Crisis to the screen as I have learned about it from documentaries, books and interviews, and I mentioned that in the other big US/foreign-conflicts thread going on at the moment in this forum.So, to "Schindler's List": I have seen many documentaries about the concentration camps, and I've read a lot. But the youth--in particular American youth--are probably not well versed in recent history (of course that's probably a huge understatement). My point about that film is that if a youth does nothing else to gain some knowledge of the Holocaust, seeing it will at least convey some of the horrors reasonably well. I think that film is a departure from the run-of-the-mill American entertainment product, and is well worth a watch--though it's certainly no substitute for the documentaries that show the real horror. I'd merely say it's not a bad starting point for someone young and lacking in knowledge, which I rather took the original poster in this thread to be.

[gosta 0]

"Who said The United States invented Democracy. My Country, The United States of America is a republic operating a democracy. We didn't invent it. We're just a grand experiment in civilization. History will decide our success with our intepretations."(taken from http://www.flightsimnetwork.com/dcforum/DC...ID2/3313.html#7 )Are you for real?Cheers,Gosta

[Guest]

Paul just for your information i did watch Schindlers Lista very moving and sad moviei was perhaps 16 at the time when i watched itregardsClayton

[BobP 56]

Hi Everyone,Re: George and CharlieDo many of you realize you are arguing with kids?George, do I remember correctly that you are 14 years old? Charlie, I assume you are 25 or 26? Both clearly lack maturity and I hope folks will simply ignore the baiting post that follow "the law of minimum astonishment".BobP

[Guest]

George 14 ? You mean me, I'm flattered where do you get your information from Bob ?I think you can add a few years to 14 should you mean me.George

[Guest]

Let me ask you this. When should we go to war? I see, after another attack kills 10,000. Or is that not even enough. Maybe we need a nuke to kill a million. People like you just sit around and let evil spread. Holding hands and singing songs will not deter our enemies. They laugh at people like you. Our enemies should fear us. What would you have done about a really bad dude. The answer is nothing. If people like you had to fight WWII, we would have lost, plain and simple. Get a clue. I don't even think the stupid people on this thread learned about WWII in our bull S*** public school system. Appeasment does not work. Ask Nevil Chamberlain. If any of the dumb American kids on this thread learned about him.DAVE

[Sonar5 3]

Gosta,You made me laugh with that one..... :-lol :-lol :-lol :-lolYou Said:"Unfortunately, that's how a lot of your fellow countrymen see Europe - a knowledge of historical facts would be a more fruitful foundation for a rational discussion, but that's not the American style, is it? (judging from previous posts in this thread)."What are you, a pollster. You have no clue what my fellow United States Citizens feel except for what you hear on the CNN (Globalization News network). You don't live here, so quite making assumptions you know nothing about, gosta. I know, how about you telling us what we feel about Europe. You said:"And on 11/09 it did, the greatest nation on earth suffering the greatest terrorist attack on earth."Wrongo, sparky.... We are a nation, not the greatest nation, but thanks for the compliment. You obviously feel very strongly about that.As for greatest terrorist attack on earth. I disagree with that one, for I feel The Germans in WWII perpetrated the greatest terrorist acts upon the Russions, Poles, and Jews. A lot more than 3000 died there.You Said:"with a hardline conservative government in force, the reaction was predictable, a propaganda-led wave of patriotism swept the country, a 'war' (against who exactly?) was the obvious answer, which in turn served to strenghten support for the terrorist groups be exploiting the (already widely held views) of the US as an imperialist, self-serving country."Well, gosta, now we know where you stand.... Let's see...with...against....hmmmmmmm, we'll let the audience decide. In your own words... ARE YOU FOR REAL... :-lol :-lolGo Read this article and maybe you will realize exactly how many of us feel.http://www.americansspeak.com/newsarticles-pitts.htmlThen go read this statement:http://ftp.avsim.com/dcforum/DCForumID6/980.html#24Someone said, think where you would be without America...You said:"Most likely, the Cold War wouldn't have dragged on as long as it did..."What a joke...I'm sure you are willing to share your great wisdom with us on that statement. It is pure Hyperbole and Conjecture supported by nothing... Try living in the present instead of your little fantasy world. It is called Reality. People like yourself are part of the problem, not part of the solution.....Cheers,Joehttp://home.attbi.com/~jranos/mysig.jpg http://avsim.com/hangar/air/bfu/logo70.gif

[Sonar5 3]

That is how I see my Country, The United States of America.So am I for real.You better belive I am. For as long as people continue to attack my country, I will be there to defend it. Period.Regards,Joehttp://home.attbi.com/~jranos/mysig.jpg http://avsim.com/hangar/air/bfu/logo70.gif

[Guest Fortress]

>Btw, didn

[BobP 56]

Hi Gosta,Thank you for a European perspective. It is difficult for Americans to hear that everyone in the world does not appreciate us. :-) I appreciate your perspective.

[Guest]

I wouldn't exactly be talking about "people like yourself are part of the problem, not part of the solution".If your style of argument is somehow supposed to represent my views, since we're both Americans, I state now that I am extremely, poorly represented.How you argue is just as if not more important than what you argue Joe. With people like you that deride, talk down to and berate at the earliest opportunity, its no wonder MY country has a bad name in some parts of the world. While I fully agree with some of your views and respect what looks to be your strong patriotism deep down inside, I am ever thankful that you do not hold a public office that has the slightest bit of influence - we'd have been bombed to hell and back by now... Even more than "they" want to today.I sincerely hope you learn to argue with respect at some point Joe. With your evident learning, it would be wholly effective. As of now, you simply extend me and my fellow Americans a bad rep. worldwide.Just my humble opinion.Take care,Elrondhttp://members.rogers.com/eelvish/Boycott-RIAA.gif]"A musician without the RIAA, is like a fish without a bicycle."[/font://http://members.rogers.com/eelvish/B...cle."[/b][/font://http://members.rogers.com/eelvish/B...cle."[/b][/font

[Guest]

Checkpoint,How silly. You make a general statement that boils down 100 years of extremely, extremely complex issues and politics into an insulting paragraph and expect to influence anyone with the intelligence higher than a flea with it?Good luck in your weird crusade. I can't believe this thread has gotten the serious responses it already has.Elrondhttp://members.rogers.com/eelvish/Boycott-RIAA.gif]"A musician without the RIAA, is like a fish without a bicycle."[/font://http://members.rogers.com/eelvish/B...cle."[/b][/font://http://members.rogers.com/eelvish/B...cle."[/b][/font

[Guest SoarPics]

Yep, I had to get past the chuckles before my first response.

[Sonar5 3]

Nice response Paul.Thanks for taking the time to respond.Regards,Joehttp://home.attbi.com/~jranos/mysig.jpg http://avsim.com/hangar/air/bfu/logo70.gif