For The Record. United States to Prosecute Pilots -

[Sonar5 3]

For The Record. United States to Prosecute Pilots - Canada Friendly Fire Incident.I am from Illinois.Some may remember that in Afghanistan, Two (2) Air National Guard Pilots from Illinois dropped ordinance on an excersise being conducted by forces from Canada.There was a lot of speculation by people that nothing would happen and that the United States did not care that Canadians died.I disagree with that sentiment, and again send my condolences to the families of those that were lost.Regards,Joe********************I hope you will read the entire story, and remember they are innocent until Proven Guilty. But my country will prosecute those that go outside the law. In The Military, we have to not only abide by The United States Constitution, but also abide by the UCMJ. (Uniform Code of Military Justice), which can be read here.http://www.military-network.com/main_ucmj/main_ucmj.htmJust follow the case, and we'll see what happens.From Fox News:http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,62946,00.htmlWASHINGTON

[Guest]

Thanks for the info - whatever the verdict is, it is nice to see it followed up !!!

[Guest]

By Bill BerkowitzHere's one anti-drug advertising campaign you'll never see: Scene One -- Bombs exploding on the mountainsides of Afghanistan. Narrator: "This is the bombing of Afghanistan." Scene Two -- U.S. bombs hitting several Afghan villages. Dead men, women and children litter the streets. Narrator: "This is the bombing of Afghanistan, on drugs." Have you wondered why there have been so many botched bombing missions in Afghanistan, resulting in an, as of yet, undetermined number of civilian casualties? Were you surprised when a U.S. Air Force pilot dropped a 500-lb laser-guided bomb and killed four Canadian members of the Princess Patricia's Canadian Light Infantry in mid April? Are you aware that bombing continues? Two recent reports from the Vancouver Sun and the Toronto Star may shed some light on these questions. In early June, the Vancouver Sun reported: "Pilots from the U.S. fighter squadron that mistakenly bombed Canadian troops in Afghanistan had told their commanders shortly before the fatal accident that they were exhausted and needed more rest between missions." At least one F-16 pilot "complained that requirements for crew rest were not being observed and that many of the pilots were overtired." He was told that "further questions about crew rest would not be looked on favorably by the wing command." Instead of complaining, "pilots were advised to speak to a flight surgeon about so-called 'go/no pills'-amphetamines used to help stay awake on long missions, and sedatives to help sleep." No magic carpet ride In a more detailed early-August piece in the Toronto Star, William Walker reported that "U.S. jet fighter pilots, responsible for at least 10 deadly 'friendly fire' accidents in the Afghanistan war, have regularly been given amphetamines to fly longer hours." Walker reports that after the extended missions, pilots return to base and are given "sedatives by air force doctors to help them sleep." Then, "often less than 12 hours later," they are sent on their next mission The Toronto Star found the names of the "exact drugs pilots are given and how they're taken" in a 24-page document produced by the Top Gun fighter training school and the Naval Aerospace Medical Research Laboratory in Pensacola, Florida. According to a spokesperson for the U.S. Air Force Surgeon-General's Office in Washington, "pilots are given the stimulant Dexedrine, generically known as dextroamphetamine, to stay alert during combat missions in Afghanistan." "Pilots refer to Dexedrine as 'go-pills.' The sleeping pills they are given, called Ambien (zolpidem) and Restoril (temazepam), are referred to as 'no-go pills.' "When fatigue could be expected to degrade air crew performance, they are given Dexedrine in 10 mg doses," air force spokeswoman Betty-Anne Mauger told The Star. According to the Star, "medical literature indicates that amphetamines can have severe side effects. The worst is called 'amphetamine psychosis.' It causes hallucinations as well as paranoid delusions. 'Dexedrine also leads a person to build a tolerance level for the drug and when higher doses are offered, anything at that level develops addictive tendencies among those who continue to use it regularly,' said Dr. Joyce A. Walsleben, director of the Sleep Disorder Centre at the New York University School of Medicine. 'The threat of abuse and addiction is definitely higher with Dexedrine.'" More on the side effects of amphetamine use comes from Drugwar.com which sites a note from Russ Kick's website, the Memory Hole: "Although this Naval publication repeatedly lists the side effects of amphetamine use, it never mentions tremor, nervousness, anxiety, and dizziness (listed at WebMD) or overstimulation, dysphoria, tics, diarrhea, and Tourette's syndrome (listed at RxList), not to mention the rare occurrences of psychosis and hallucinations. In fact, WebMD warns: 'Use caution when driving, operating machinery, or performing other hazardous activities. Dextroamphetamine may cause dizziness, blurred vision, or restlessness, and it may hide the symptoms of extreme tiredness.'" Was this potentially addicting combination of uppers and downers in part responsible for the faulty judgment that may have led to the deaths of the Canadians? "Better bombing through chemistry," was the way John Pike, director of Globalsecurity.org, a Washington-area defense policy think-tank, phrased it for the Toronto Star. "This was certainly one of my first thoughts after the Canadian "friendly"-fire accident. The initial depiction made it seem as if the pilot was behaving in an unusually aggressive fashion." Pilots in the sky with ... According to the Star, Illinois Air National Guard Maj. Harry Schmidt was piloting the F-16 supersonic fighter that dropped the bomb. Maj. William Umbach was flying with him in another F-16 that night. "I don't know the answer," Schmidt's lawyer, Charles Gittins, told the Star, when asked whether Dexedrine was involved. "I never asked my pilot if he was medicated. But it's quite common. He's on vacation now, so I'll check with him about it when he gets back." How widespread is drug use in the Air Force? Is it officially sanctioned? According to Pike, "The aviation community and the Air Force community certainly don't like to talk about so-called 'performance enhancing' drugs," he said. The Toronto Star: "There have been reports that Schmidt and his fellow pilots-originally deployed to patrol the U.S.-enforced no-fly zone over southern Iraq from an American base in Kuwait-had complained of fatigue since they were also ordered to fly combat missions over Afghanistan. Gittins said he was not aware of such complaints. They "had to fly for three hours to arrive at the combat zone. An F-16 mission to Afghanistan from Kuwait routinely takes nine hours including three hours over the target area plus the trip back. Pilots also attend pre-flight briefings and debriefings after they return." Mauger, the Air Force spokeswoman, said that "Dexedrine is commonly used by pilots on missions of more than eight hours' duration, or when pilots get less than the recommended 12 hours' rest between missions, as was the case for the pilots on double duty from the Kuwait air base. The Top Gun document, entitled "Performance Maintenance During Continuous Flight Operations," reports that "in an anonymous survey among pilots who flew in Desert Storm, the 1991 Persian Gulf War, 60 percent said they used Dexedrine. In units that saw the most frequent combat missions, usage was as high as 96 percent." During the Persian Gulf War pills were 5mg each (in contrast to today's 10mg pills). According to the Top Gun report, "pilots are allowed to 'self-regulate' the amounts of Dexedrine they take. They carry the pills in the single-person cockpit of their F-16s and take them as they wish. As one unidentified Desert Storm squadron commander said of his pilots in the document: 'You must give them guidelines and then let them self-regulate. If you can't trust them with the medication then you can't trust them with a 50 million dollar airplane to try and go kill someone.'" Retired Col. Richard Graham of Plano, Texas, who logged 4,600 hours of flight time in the U.S. Air Force, including 210 combat missions in Vietnam, said pilots in that war routinely took Dexedrine. The Air Force approved its use in 1960. "We would be tested for uppers and downers and if we tolerated them okay, we went forward," he said in an interview. As long as nobody is abusing it, I think it's okay. "I'm not a big fan of anybody taking medication in the flight business, but sometimes situations call for it in combat. I never had any bad effects from it and it served me well." This is the president's "war on terrorism." This is the president's "war on terrorism" on drugs!

[Sonar5 3]

Hello george....Nice ground clutter....Blah....blah.....blah...blah...blah....blah.....Have a Day george,Joehttp://home.attbi.com/~jranos/mysig.jpg http://avsim.com/hangar/air/bfu/logo70.gif

[Guest SoarPics]

Yet another intelligent contribution.

[Guest]

Thanks for the info Joe, truly a tragic event. Paulhttp://www.advdigitalmedia.com/sig.jpg

[Guest]

Hey Sonar5,If the Canadians had bombed the Americans, would you still think that George Abrahams post was a bunch of ground clutter? Or would you be interested in hearing a little of what the theories are that relate to the possible cause(s) of the incident? Even if it is out of left field and long winded.Show a little more respect towards others, man. If you don't believe it, say so and back it up. Blah, blah, blah, shows lack of intelligence and I know you're smarter than that.And as a Canadian, I don't think that the pilots should be charged. What good will it serve to ruin their lives as well. I'm pretty sure that if in the future they were to get into a similar situation, they'd be much more careful. I pray that we have learned from it enough to never repeat it.Anyways, I see Milton Shupe's DASH 7 has just been uploaded to the library so I'm gonna go flying.JMHOCF-AOA

[Sonar5 3]

You are welcome, Paul.I will wait to see the outcome on this as well. The truth will then be told. I was just relating FACTS as they stand. They are being charged. That is the only fact in this thread.Like I said in my post. The fall under the UCMJ, and IF they violated it, it will be found out. If they are innocent, that will also be found out.Tragic indeed.Regards,Joehttp://home.attbi.com/~jranos/mysig.jpg http://avsim.com/hangar/air/bfu/logo70.gif

[Sonar5 3]

Hi JMHO or whatever your name is since you don't have a profile listed, To be honest with you, I didn't read his dribble since he called an irish insult at me in another thread. But I have read it now, so I can respond to your dribble.So you sir, should remember that I started this thread, not the almighty innocent george.So I will answer your questions.You Said:"If the Canadians had bombed the Americans, would you still think that George Abrahams post was a bunch of ground clutter? Or would you be interested in hearing a little of what the theories are that relate to the possible cause(s) of the incident? Even if it is out of left field and long winded."Exactly that, Theories. Maybe one of the Candians looked up with a weapon locked on when the jet flew over. Just a theory, mind you. Can you see how dangerous theories are? He has not listed any facts in that thread. Or I wonder if there is any incidence of drug use in the Canadian Air Forces. Never mind, I don't want to divert the topic. Again, I started the post. Now why don't you go back to when this incident occured. Search the forums and find out what I said about it then, eh?You Said:"Show a little more respect towards others, man. If you don't believe it, say so and back it up. Blah, blah, blah, shows lack of intelligence and I know you're smarter than that."Well, you know what happens when someone assumes, eh? I have never said I didn't believe it, unless you can point it out. I never said that, ever. I have great respect for those in the Military in Canada. I replied to george, the irish guy. SO QUIT ASSUMING, and don't take my words out of context. I know exactly what I have written.You Said:"And as a Canadian, I don't think that the pilots should be charged. What good will it serve to ruin their lives as well. I'm pretty sure that if in the future they were to get into a similar situation, they'd be much more careful. I pray that we have learned from it enough to never repeat it."Well, it is not for me to say whether they should be charged or not. If the circumstances lead to charges, then my military, of which I have served, have conducted a preliminary investigation and most likely have developed enough evidence to charge. The reason the Military brings charges is to enforce regulations for the safety of all personnel, including allies. It was a tragic event. Please note that these pilots were from my home state, Illinois.As to George's post. I find no factual evidence there, only rumor, inuendo, hyperbole, and conjecture, upon which he has tried to deflect the topic as an attack on me, and my country, IMHO.Me, I'll wait for the results of the Proceedings under the Uniform Code of Military Justice, to which these pilots agreed to abaide by when they took their oath's as officers.I suggest you do the same.have a day,Joehttp://home.attbi.com/~jranos/mysig.jpg http://avsim.com/hangar/air/bfu/logo70.gif

[Sonar5 3]

Greg, it is all context...Remember, I started this thread.See my ex. on blah blah's below. There is a reason for everything.Regards,Joehttp://home.attbi.com/~jranos/mysig.jpg http://avsim.com/hangar/air/bfu/logo70.gif