Sloped runways?

[Tshikwara 0]

Slopping runways must be possible. It has been available in Xplane 9 and maybe even earlier versions. I only have Xplane 9, so thats all I can comment on. the runways simply follow the terrain contour. crossing runways arent a problem, because they cross the terrain at the same point. the only difficulty is that sometimes the terrain contour isn't so accurate, so you end up with a step rather than a slope! Take off is easy one way, but watch the step coming the other way! There is an option to make the runways flat if you prefer, or if those runways cause issues. My problem with Xplane is that there aren't the tools out there to correct the terrain contours easily, so it is difficult to correct those steps at your favourite airport. The amount / smoothness of slope then depends on the level of your terrain complexity. I realise that MS may do things differently, but it can be done, even at complex airports. You dont even need to know the exact details of thresholds etc. there are some great challenges out there, where the slope does add to gameplay. Aerosoft have a number of titles that are developed expressly because their slope creates the challenge. It would be nice though if the sim could support slopping runways without needing third parties to make the product, as there are a number of runways in places like Papua New Guinea that are hugely challenging, but will never get the third party add on treatment. Tapini is an example. In FSX, the airport exists, but instead of being sloped like it is in reality, the airport juts out into the valley like a diving board over a pool. I do hope that MS could do it, as it does add yet another dimension. Just a thought.

[HUSSAR 262]

Marcoh,I never really seemed to care about sloped runways until I saw your screenshot and it is quite apparent how realistic it makes the sim look and I would also say there is a whole lot more depth now that I see it the way you have presented it. Dare I ask how much work is involved to slope a runway?Very nice shot.

[n4gix 4,947]

Slopping runways must be possible.

Of course they're possible! In fact, they have been done already for years...However, they aren't available for AI aircraft, as the algorithim for AI a/c doesn't permit true ground detection by the tires, but instead follows a very simple, elevation based level line...It is this limitation that blocks "sloped runways" from being implemented on a global basis!

[JonRD463 146]

Of course they're possible! In fact, they have been done already for years...However, they aren't available for AI aircraft, as the algorithim for AI a/c doesn't permit true ground detection by the tires, but instead follows a very simple, elevation based level line...It is this limitation that blocks "sloped runways" from being implemented on a global basis!

A programmer I am not, so this is all theoretical. Would it be possible for AI to have a pre-determined touchdown point at a fixed elevation for the runways, and then just follow the elevation of the runway for the rollout? I don't know anything about the AI SDKs, so I don't know if the Z axis figures in at all for a/c on the ground, so I thought I'd just toss this out there.

[mgh 89]

In principle anything's possible but at a cost. Microsoft will have set a budget and the developers will have to work within that. Are sloping runways the best use of the budget compared with all the other featutes that have appeared on wish lists?

[tf51d 284]

In order to do sloped runways properly (In addition to the AI issue) you need a greater resolution mesh. Else you end up with runways that are more like a ski jump, like in X-Plane. For now sloped runways are just a gimmick.

[Timmo 0]

In principle anything's possible but at a cost. Microsoft will have set a budget and the developers will have to work within that. Are sloping runways the best use of the budget compared with all the other featutes that have appeared on wish lists?

It's also a case of computing cost- rendering an object along a basic 'flat' vector is fairly simple and so doesn't require many calculations to do. Making an object read the terrain multiple times and offset itself from it requires a fair amount of processing power.....power that may be best used in other places.

[xXArch_AngelXx 0]

It may not have to be extremely accurate, but I really hope that they will at least implement a basic sloped runway preset... I will try to explain.We all know that X-plane has sloped runways, but since most major airports have a 'relatively' flat runway, only about a foot or two elevation difference between the opposite ends of the runway... I think the MS Flight Dev team should at least attempt to create a bumpy runway, and also instead of following the exact contours of the terrain near the airport... why not make it simple :If its sloped down, make a dozen or so different models (or what ever method that will be in flight for the runways) classed on the severity of the slope, if its a 1-3ft difference in elevation then that will be (I guess) the first class... one found in major airports. The next class will be at smaller airports, depending on the data of the terrain nearby... say my local airport, that has a dip of about 3 feet in the centre of the runway, similar to the St. Barths picture a few posts before me. And My guess is that most airports in that size has a similar dip. I don't know exactly where I'm going with this, it is 4am... but you get the idea? It doesn't have to follow the data precisely (causing 'steps' in few cases in X-plane I imagine) , instead rather, do a 'curved line of best fit' like you do in mathematics... smoothing out the data and getting rid of outliers before rendering the runway. I don't know if this is the best way to do it, but that's my thoughts, I know I'm not great at explaining my view, but I hope you understood a little Jamie ♥

[Guest simmer9304]

Sloped runways are totally possible! As long as you know the right ways to work around it the AI will take off and land on a sloped runway all day. At North Plains 1OR4 the runway is sloped and has multiple bumps but AI will still recognise it, the only hitch is that AI cannot use sloped taxiways. However this really depends on what you define a runway as... If you mean a sloped ground poly, then no AI won't use that. But using methods that mimic a ground poly but aren't a 3D model at all... then AI will use sloped taxiways.I haven't fully tested any of this, this is just from my own experience designing airfields.

[xXArch_AngelXx 0]

I just don't understand why its so hard for the AI to be able to land on a sloped runway I mean, it will either just help them slow down, or speed them up... cant the AI calculate the right amount of thrust and everything on its own? I just don't see the problem As long as it touches down at the correct elevation, and the right point on the runway... I just don't understand the problem

[Attila 2]

Everything is possible, including AIs handling sloped runways. However, everything also has a cost, in this case development and then a performance hit each time a plane lands or takes off. It is far easier to code a landing if you can just look at the airport elevation once and assume it is level all the way, instead of at each node on the runway mesh as the plane rolls along.It already looks bad when wheels are not properly placed on flat ground. Imagine what it would look like if you had two intersecting sloped runways to handle too.A lot of the new features that people would like to see in Flight suffer from the same bad cost benefit ratio as sloped runways. It would be nice, but not at the cost of losing out on more important features and a potential drop in frame rates.

[Christopher Low 5,332]

I really don't see the point in wasting development time on adding undulating runways (IMO, "sloped" simply means "flat, at an angle to the base scenery"). Everyone would want their own local airports to have runways that perfectly match the real world ones, and that would simply be far too much work. Creating these "sloped" runways that you all want wouldn't be as easy as hitching the runway up at an angle. MS would have to model each undulation in fine detail to get them accurate enough to be used without your aircraft bumping and bashing its way into the air.I would much rather see MS incorporate something far more useful....like compatibility with my existing addons :(

[n4gix 4,947]

I just don't understand the problem

I've already stated the reason. The AI engine doesn't detect tire contact with the ground at all. It simply has a straight and level algorithim for ground movement. It "assumes" that the elevation of the reference point of the airport is a constant.

[ErichB 3,638]

The AI engine doesn't detect tire contact with the ground at all. It simply has a straight and level algorithim for ground movement. It "assumes" that the elevation of the reference point of the airport is a constant.

Bill, that's interesting. Do you think this is a problem which could be rectified by MS - and would it be reasonable to assume that the core algorithm could be modified easily enough to allow AI to use sloped runway surfaces ? What (new) issues do you think this will present, if any?Erich

[n4gix 4,947]

Bill, that's interesting. Do you think this is a problem which could be rectified by MS - and would it be reasonable to assume that the core algorithm could be modified easily enough to allow AI to use sloped runway surfaces ? What (new) issues do you think this will present, if any?

Not just "could be rectified," but had been until development code for FSvNext was archived and the entire ACES studio closed. One of the goals was to develop independent suspension for vehicles, which meant developing a scheme to detect tire contact with the mesh layer. Had this been completely developed, it would have provided the means for AI to track ground elevation changes, which in turn might possibly have enabled the reality of non-flat runways being implemented.Of course, nothing comes without cost, and it may well have been too computationally intensive keeping track of hundreds of "wheels on ground..." :(