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Guest estevesm

Mixing sim flying with real flying

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Guest Aeromachines

I'd like to take a shot at this. I think Geoff is very much correct when he says, (not a quote) You apply your real life piloting skills to the sim. I know I do. But then for the newer pilots, those with little real experience, it is a heck of a procedures trainer. But for some it is not working, and may be doing them harm. I saw it today. Here is my story. I thought I would be nice and fly multiplay with a youngster who I met online. He asked me to fly MSFS2004 with him. We did. I was being extremely generous and let him select the whole scenario. He soon wanted to play head on passes in large aircraft during take off at a large airport. He liked to take off on 18R for instance, and have me take off on 36L, then meet in the middle of the runway for a head on pass. I tired of this quickly (two or three take offs) and felt like I had been had; I had allowed myself to be used. I soon broke off the session. And thinking on it I see that everything he is doing in his MSFS aircraft is wrong, dangerous, and teaches incorrect viewpoints and lessons about flying. These simulator programs, with MSFS especially are tools. I don't think they are games or toys in anyway. And yes, this is an opinion. But as a former professional pilot and CFI I believe the sim can be a great asset; but I also think that it has to be handled correctly. Today I saw how not to handle it. I'd like to hear more on the subject. Please, keep posting.

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Guest Twister

Mmmmm....very interesting topic...As a procedural and instrument trainer, this sim has many advantages I believe.On the other hand, the aerodynamic behavior of most airplanes is a far cry from the real thing.Generally speaking, drag and ground effect are badly modelled.Take adverse yaw for example: totally wrong - the adverse yaw in the sim is linked to the angle of roll while it should have been linked to ailerons' deflection.Virtual pilots get used to applying rudder through the entire duration of the turn while in real life, as soon as the ailerons are neutralized, adverse yaw disappears and with it the need for rudder input.The lack of peripheral vision (VC is NOT a perfect solution) and the lack of depth of vision constitute another problem (unless you manage to hook 6 monitors...)The lack of "feedback" through the controls (out-of-trim forces) is also a major contributing factor for a lack of realism. Just my 2 cents...Twister

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What a great thread. I too am a high time PPL and I agree with everyone that the sim is a great procedural trainer, especially navigational. But,I am a firm believer that when it comes to landings, especially in a 172 (a very strange bird to land compared to the rest of the GA fleet-anyone with significant time in anything else will testify to that) the sim will mess up your squash in depth perception and it makes you totally complacent in correctly judging the flare and the real fot work that is required in ground effect before touchdown. You know what I'm talking about, the little blurbs of yaw that you get as you try to hold that centerline. I think the sim really hurts my real flying on approach and landing. I've got nothing but positive things to say about Real Air Sims 172 and DF's 152, but I'm with the side that says sim will never be able to match real world flying when it comes to true dynamics. And I say that with total respect for the entire flight sim community.

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The 2 don't even compare.I primarily use the FS series for instrument training, and getting my "kicks" in a 777 or a 767 or such, or "flying" that plane you've always wanted to.Nothing beats the real thing though, coming in at 110 knots in a Navajo, on a downsloping, icey runway, surrounded by trees, with a 90 degree crosswind blowing a 20 knots that shears right when you flare.You just can't duplicate that in the sim!!Chris

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Guest Richard_H

A few additional points from a non technical PPL.1. Putting FS v RW into perspective, I really think that the only significant difference is in landing performance (as ably demonstrated by many of the points in this thread). It just isn't the same. That said, representation of the other 99% of your flying feels very realistic.2. What has not been emphasised so far is the cost saving of practicing the art while on the ground. In RW training, you become accustomed to work overload, particularly those first few hours in the circuit! What you learn that you have to do, is move as much of the work into your subconscious. And this can only be done by practice, practice, practice. A lot of this can be done in FS, so the stuff like trimming the aircraft, applying rudder in the turn, knowing which instrument to check, etc, become sufficiently instinctive so that you don't have to really think about it. I know I am an average pilot, but I did my PPL in 50 hours, and am convinced practice in FS saved me 5 - 10 RW hours.3. We've talked alot about the benefits of practice for Instrument work. Proof of the pudding: I did my British IMC rating in the minimum 15 hours, and can honestly say, using FS, I had mastered much of the theory before training began. Again, I'm convinced I saved 5-10 hours.So in total, FS has probably saved me 10-20 RW hours training - that's

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Guest estevesm

Nice thread... here's my story:I fly MSFS since FS4 and last year I had the opportunity to fly right seat in a 172.The PIC did the landings and take offs but I flew the rest. He was impressed by my knowledge of the panel, numbers, and how I could maintain a heading/altitude flying level (ok, level flying is not a big deal, but it was for me since it was the first time I had the controls of a real airplane). We did some turns and he congratulated me on the fact that I used the rudder correctly, but the thing is: I only realized I was using the rudder after he told me that... :-) I just felt like I needed to use it... strange because in FS I always look at the "ball" and try to keep it centered.I too got a little fixated on the panel, although after 15 mins I started to look outside more...Also, I'm a skydiver and usually fly right seat on Caravans and Twin Otters (ok, no landings just takeoffs ;-)... it's nice to see the pilot do things and try them out in FS... :-)RgdsMarcelo

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