Beware this type of Sofware security system

[Guest danowat]

So an AVSIM outing to TOTS (Southend) is in order then ;), white stilletosville here we come LOL.Dan.

[Guest danowat]

Just thinking about other activation systems, a racing game I use, LFS, had a similar problem, i.e. people using up all their keys.So what they did was every month gave you a new key to use if you needed it.Would that work?.HmmmmDan.

[Guest allcott]

>WOW, now thats some philosophy, increase the price to cover>piracy, in which time more people turn to piracy to overcome>these cost increases, and the price increases even further.>>This is NOT a soloution, piracy is a major problem, in every>field, music/films and software, and increasing the price of>products will not stop it, it will make it worse.>>You have a right to buy or not to buy, you also have a right>to mantain your rights once you have brought a product, if the>product is not of merchantable quality, (i.e. you cant use it)>you have the RIGHT to get your money back, no ifs, no buts,>thats the law, at least in the UK.>>I fail to see a problem, has anybody actually been REFUSED to>install a legitimatly purchased product?.>Has anybody had at anytime a refund refuse?, I would be>interested to hear of either cases.>>Dan.Given the recent change in legislation, that may be exactly what we are about to see. Despite what Jaap says, it is perfectly within a suppliers right to refuse to supply a product. At such a point no contract exists, no agreement has been entered into, and no all-encompassing legislation that I know of that can force a vendor to sell to a customer if they don't want to. No law says they have to give a reason, so if they say "no" that's it. And the vendor still has the right to end the relationship once established by refunding the customer.So, if the piracy problem doesn't go away (and who for one moment thinks that it will?) then will we see the rise of the Refund as the ultimate sanction against trouble-making customers? The rules of the game are clearly stated before you sign up, and if you find those rules don't agree with you then I can see only one way out. Don't play. You don't get to make the rules, only choose whether to abide by them. And either side can decide you're not playing fair.Allcott

[Guest jmarcure]

>>>This needs to be addressed before payware companies even>consider "relaxing" their anti-piracy measures, untill then we>have to put-up or shut-up<<>>Point taken, but I wonder what would happen if the book or>magazine or CD you wanted was subject to the same sort of>restrictions. Just imagine - when you go to buy a magazine>you are issued with a pair of spectacles which are required to>read the print and they are fixed so that only your eyes can>read the print. You can only see if the magazine is of>interest to you if you buy it first and get the special>spectacles. If you don't like the magazine then you cannot>get a refund. If anyone else wants to read an article in the>magazine then they have to go to the newsstand, buy their own>copy and get their own special spectacles.>>Sounds ridiculous? Well, how many times have you lent a book>or magazine or CD to a friend? Every time you do you deprive>the publisher of revenue because each person ought to buy>their own copy.>>>>To be honest with you, I can't see why anybody would need to>reinstall more than once a year<<>>Really? I recently had a PC built for me but FS9 ran poorly>because of XP Pro issues. So I had to format and re-install>everything. That was two installs in just a couple of days.>>And what about hard disk crashes or system software errors ->all of which require reinstalls.>>DavidClose to my analogy. Here is mine that I

[rightseat 277]

I still want to know what company this thread is talking about. I have my suspicions, and I posted a "post" earlier about this sort of thing, didn't get too much attention. Is there somewhere on another site that would tell me who this culprit is so that I won't buy from them either?Sorry to jump in the middle of all this "I'm from England" banter so I'll let you know that I'm in the middle of the US, Okahoma City, Oklahoma!!!!

[Guest jaapverduijn]

"(...) Despite what Jaap says, it is perfectly within a suppliers right to refuse to supply a product (...)"Once a product is publicly offered for sale, and/or advertised or promoted, there is no way a vendor can legally discriminate between groups of potential buyers. And yes, INDEED does a contract exists, and INDEED an agreement has been entered into: the product is publicly offered for sale and the buyer has decided to buy. If the vendor suddenly decides to exclude jews, negroes, homosexuals, men/women with wooden legs, and/or adolescents who have installed Tomb Raider II more than three times on a Mac with 512MB of memory inside a purple housing, such a vendor is in BIG trouble in any country where sound legislation on consumer protection and anti-discrimination exists. Be well!Jaap Verduijn.

[Guest jmarcure]

I find this type of discussion and its various views fascinating. Software is just another product but many of us place special meaning on it and confer special honors on those that produce it. It seems to be one of the very few products that the producer actually has more after sales rights than the consumer has. I can

[robert young 2,897]

We have so far resisted taking measures which involve limited installation, online key registrations prior to activation, and other "sophisticated" forms of security.We live in hope that most people will respect this liberal approach, but we are, especially in the last couple of weeks, seeing the significant damage this has done to our business.The are some warez sites who not only offer our products but they have the cheek to actually attempt to link downloaders, some of whom they charge, to OUR files servers for that download!Added to this are many users who are blatantly sending their RealAir complete installations to other people.We know this is going on because we have been given evidence of the latter, and the former example is backed up by the knowledge that our bandwidth is enormously in excess of actual SALES downloads, even allowing generously for a dropped download or retries.We estimate that between 30% and 50%....yes up to 50% of our business goes down the pan to piracy. That represents a huge setback to our ability to continue as a viable concern.So while I sympathise with objections to increasing apparent paranoia about security from some simware sellers, when you look at the alarming statistics it is hardly surprising they are beginning to take action. It is HARDER THAN EVER TO MAKE A QUALITY PAYWARE ORGANISATION VIABLE. And it isn't the improved standard of freeware that's causing this. It is piracy.In the long run, the only foolproof guard against this blatant piracy is to appeal to the honourable instincts of as many of Avsim and other forum subscribers as possible to REJECT offers of discounted or pirated software, and to desist from sending copies of pre-installed software to friends, neighbours and other contacts.If the current dramatic rise in piracy continues unabated, we will frankly just shut up shop rather than apply draconian security measures.For those recent posters who have been writing threads about payware ripoffs and bad service, I can only speak for ourselves in this regard. We work our socks off to give customers a fair deal, but we are NOT getting a fair deal back from the pirates among them who are no doubt a minority, but a growing proportion.Kind Regards,Rob Young = RealAir Simulations

[vgbaron 3,614]

Rob - Sad, but true and very well put. I have been involved in the hacking/cracking/security area for many years and if I've learned one thing - it's this - if someone REALLY wants to steal your product - they will be able to - and there's nothing you can do about it. Notice the *REALLY* - I'm not talking about a casual user here - I'm talking about a computer savvy user who might have access to a large computer system. Hardware dongles? - not that difficult to crack for experienced hackers. Limited installs? - a piece of cake for these folks. Fortunately, other than the exercise of learning how to break a new security method, most of these folks aren't really interested in 'small fry' products - no insult intended to ANYONE.The best one can hope for is to deter the CASUAL pirate - the one who makes a few copies for his/her friends. Not to blast an age group but this is usually teens and pre teens.Major department stores and grocery chains add in a percentage to cover shoplifting, which is akin to piracy in the computer world. It is a cost of doing business. Now, before someone jumps down my throat, I'm not saying it is right - just that we live in the real world and this is the way it is AND human nature being what it is - it will NOT go away.You could put the death penalty as a form of punishment for computer piracy and you STILL would have pirates - fewer maybe :) but still there.IMHO, if I were the original poster's friend - if he can't get legitimate relief from the company, I'd learn to search the net and find the hack to enable multiple installs for his product.Just MHO,Vic

[Guest shanwick]

>>If the current dramatic rise in piracy continues unabated, we will frankly just shut up shop rather than apply draconian security measures<

[Guest Fortress]

>Once a product is publicly offered for sale, and/or advertised>or promoted, there is no way a vendor can legally discriminate>between groups of potential buyers. And yes, INDEED does a>contract exists, and INDEED an agreement has been entered>into: the product is publicly offered for sale and the buyer>has decided to buy.All wrong I'm afraid:-(. An item in a shop/on the internet/or wherever is contractually not "an offer to sell". The item is displayed as a so-called 'invitation to treat'. In other words, the offer to buy is being made by the customer and not by the vendor and no agreement/contract or otherwise binding arrangement exists until:Customer makes offer,Vendor accepts the offer,and between them there's due consideration: value for money, exchange of money/items of equal "worth" etc.Consider this: a man goes into a shop and chooses something from the shelf. During his walk around the store, he changes his mind and puts the item back:According to you, the vendor has due right to sue under breach of contract, which is of course, ridiculous and which is why in the UK - and I suspect in the rest of the sensible world - no contract exists until offer,acceptance, and consideration have taken place (or whatever the various countries legislation decides to call these three requirements for a binding contractual arrangement).Regarding the 'discrimination', since the offer is being made by the customer the vendor is perfectly at liberty to reject the offer and does not need to give any reason. Call it discrimination if you wish, but these are the facts. This is also why a vendor does not have to sell a product which has been labelled incorrectly (too cheap): you offer to buy the item at the reduced price and the vendor rejects your offer. Of course the vendor is totally in their rights to accept your low offer, but this has nothing to do with the law, merely goodwill on the part of the vendor.If the law in your country is as you describe, I can only feel lucky I don't live there! Power to the People!!Cheers,Paulhttp://www.strontiumdog.plus.com/cin.gifwww.bavirtual.co.uk/cin.htm - please give generously!!Officially licenced by British Airways plc for use of name and logo[p]AMD XP2800+ Barton, Gigabyte GA-7NNXP nForce2, 1Gig Crucial PC3200 DDR 400MHz, Gainward 128 MB GF4-4200, SB Audigy, 3 x WD Caviar SE[/p]

[Guest jmarcure]

It's a real bummer that so many people are ripping you off. I know it

[barryward12345 0]

>What was the name of the company and what program was it.ULEAD Photoimpact

[Guest Steve Small]

Rob,You are, sadly, seeing exactly what I said you would see when you and I spoke about product activation at the beginning of this year, when we reluctantly 'took point' on this issue after we were not able to get Flight1 to tighten up their delivery system. If we had been able to motivate F1 to tigthten up their old system after we proved it to be such a failure in preventing piracy, we would not have invested four months developing our own system. At the time you and I spoke about this, I explained, statistically, FSD were supporting 6+ times the number of products we actually sold. I have never had a problem with any delivery or protection system that offered to me the prospect of continued product choice. By that I mean the survival of businesses offering me a choice of superior products. PMDG, FSNavigator, ActiveCamera, Lago, RealityXP, FSFlightMax, Pete Dowson, CaptainSim ... they all use different methods and their creators enhance my pleasure in this hobby. They are entitled to make business decisions that will ensure their survival. For the record, FSD have no intention of "shutting up shop" and giving in to piracy as you telegraph. We enjoy the hobby too much, we have too many good friends in it that we want to keep faith with. Very few of our users suffer any inconvenience whatsoever from product activation, but there are a noisy few who would have you think otherwise. A recently deleted thread that saw many 'silent majority' users support that statement was encouraging.For the record, I am enjoying the new Decathlon of yours, legally obtained, very much indeed. To give in, as you put it, is the easy way out. I would encourage you to reconsider, to stick to your guns and to not give in to piracy.Yours, http://www.fsd-international.com/team/Steve_signature.gif

[Guest Fortress]

>No, it isn't. There may be a limited number of circumstances>under which a public vendor may discriminate between (groups>of) clients, but such a right is far from "absolute". Yes, it is. "Absolute" may not be the right word but then so is "limited". The vendor does have a right to choose not to sell (or - to put it in its correct legal terms - to reject an offer to buy) to whomever they please every time an offer is made....maybe 'absolute' wasn't a bad choice after all! Now, if the customer could prove "they" were being discriminated against - well, that's a different story.Cheers,Paulhttp://www.strontiumdog.plus.com/cin.gifwww.bavirtual.co.uk/cin.htm - please give generously!!Officially licenced by British Airways plc for use of name and logo[p]AMD XP2800+ Barton, Gigabyte GA-7NNXP nForce2, 1Gig Crucial PC3200 DDR 400MHz, Gainward 128 MB GF4-4200, SB Audigy, 3 x WD Caviar SE[/p]