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Hirgab

Anyone here refuse to fly online? If so, why?

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I've tried VATSIM a couple of times in the past, but have never gone back since then. The lack of ATC coverage, the lack of traffic over any given area (except during events,) and the terrible UI (FSInn/Squakbox) turned me off for good. I'm curious if I'm alone in this category or if there are others out there that feel the same way. Surely I can't be missing out on much.Regards,
Look and listen to the interaction with Vatsim ATC staff at Stuttgart Germany as Part1 of my EDDS to LOWI journey with the 767, FS2Crew and Vatsimhttp://www.youtube.com/user/simbanlHappy landings...

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Look and listen to the interaction with Vatsim ATC staff at Stuttgart Germany as Part1 of my EDDS to LOWI journey with the 767, FS2Crew and Vatsimhttp://www.youtube.com/user/simbanlHappy landings...
Nice Job! :( :( :(

Jim Wenham

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Having been controller on SATCO/VATSIM since July 1997 (Day2 of SATCO I believe) and having seen the operations close up I think the current set up is good enough. It just needs one thing and which I wrote about on the vatsim forums but have not seen any progress.The old principle of "if you staff it they will come" needs to be applied but with one crucial change...tell them when and where you are staffing it!I have suggested that we need one central ATC booking system which will tell you when controllers will be online for which position. This is the same principle as the events. Pilots know that they will be guaranteed ATC coverage and they fly in to the airport.One central page on the vatsim website can show the daily estimated time slot bookings. Pilots then can pick their departure and destination airports based on where they need ATC coverage. Conversely controllers also get traffic because pilots are aware that they will get ATC. Win/Win.There are flaws to this say for example if ATC is not able to come online in that period or many controllers may not have the ability to predict their time slots but these will be ironed out. When it is up and running this should give a tremendous boost to traffic.The ZLA website already has this option it just needs the ARTCC to encourage use of the system and someone to collect all the data on to a central chart.Any takers to develop this?Shez


Shez Ansari

Windows 11; CPU: Intel Core i7-8700K; GPU: EVGA GEFORCE GTX 1080Ti 11GB; MB: Gigabyte Z370 AORUS Gaming 5; RAM: 16GB; HD: Samsung 960 Pro 512GB SSD, Samsung 850 Pro 256GB SSD; Display: ASUS 4K 28", Asus UHD 26"

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One central page on the vatsim website can show the daily estimated time slot bookings. Pilots then can pick their departure and destination airports based on where they need ATC coverage. Conversely controllers also get traffic because pilots are aware that they will get ATC. Win/Win...
Hi Shez,That would be great if people knew ahead of time when they will be online, but really most don't.Most people don't say, "okay 2 days from now at 6pm I'm going to fly on VATSIM".Its more like "okay I'm home now, the wife just went shopping looks like I have 2 or 3 free hours, hmmm lemmehop on VATSIM and do a flight". I think most of the time, the flight is more impromptu than planned ahead of time. Even the choice of Departureand Destination often is only made after this impromptu decision to fly.There needs to be a system in place to allow Controllers to handle these impromptu Flights to the lesspopular destinations where the gaps in coverage are.I can only see it working, if the Controllers can 'on-the-fly' move to positions where thePilots are actually flying. Rather than Controllers staffing in one place and expecting the planes to cometo them. That sort of system guarantees gaps in coverage.Regards.Ernie.

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I occasionally fly and really want to enjoy VATSIM, but as a serious simmer (and r/w IFR rated private pilot) I usually find it a frustrating experience. The ATC quality just isn't there in most cases, at least where I fly in the US region. Most of the controllers seem to fall apart as soon as more than a few aircraft are in the area, and things like the special events where there's somewhat real-world level traffic can be nightmares of 45 minute waits for your departure clearance, everybody getting vectored 20-50 miles apart on final, people flying off on a vector forgotten by ATC, getting descended way early, and overall just not a realistic IFR experience. And ironically, in the VATSIM forums the "good" controllers who do know what they're doing say they don't like to control anymore because the pilot quality is poor, which makes it frustrating for them. So there's that curious situation of good pilots not wanting to fly because of uneven ATC quality, and good controllers not controlling because of uneven pilot quality. On the other hand, r/w IFR flying can be frustrating too, although for different reasons. So maybe it kind of evens out in a weird way?

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I would say that the atc quality on vatsim is way, way higher than the atc quality of the built in atc in fsx. The built in atc is a joke that is not even able to maintain separation.

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best time to fly online is when there is a flyin event taking place, to find out when the next flyin event is taking place look at the homepage www.vatsim.net the best part is if you participate in the flyin you get to fly from / to a different airport with full ATC, plenty of Air Traffic and alot of fun!


I7-10700F RTX 3070 32 Gig Ram

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Hi Shez,That would be great if people knew ahead of time when they will be online, but really most don't.Most people don't say, "okay 2 days from now at 6pm I'm going to fly on VATSIM".Its more like "okay I'm home now, the wife just went shopping looks like I have 2 or 3 free hours, hmmm lemmehop on VATSIM and do a flight". I think most of the time, the flight is more impromptu than planned ahead of time. Even the choice of Departureand Destination often is only made after this impromptu decision to fly.There needs to be a system in place to allow Controllers to handle these impromptu Flights to the lesspopular destinations where the gaps in coverage are.I can only see it working, if the Controllers can 'on-the-fly' move to positions where thePilots are actually flying. Rather than Controllers staffing in one place and expecting the planes to cometo them. That sort of system guarantees gaps in coverage.Regards.Ernie.
The solution to that would be to have an auto-popup prompting you to input approximate time off from controlling which would then show your log-on and log-off time on the chart. Again no guarantees but at least a step in the direction of ATC coverage.I do feel the ability to jump into new controller positions would not guarantee ATC quality. If I look at myself I guess I could jump from ZLA to ZAB to handle a load of traffic but I would be providing generic ATC not authentic ATC for ZAB for which I would have to remember all the procedures etc. It could work but quality would suffer.ShezShez

Shez Ansari

Windows 11; CPU: Intel Core i7-8700K; GPU: EVGA GEFORCE GTX 1080Ti 11GB; MB: Gigabyte Z370 AORUS Gaming 5; RAM: 16GB; HD: Samsung 960 Pro 512GB SSD, Samsung 850 Pro 256GB SSD; Display: ASUS 4K 28", Asus UHD 26"

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I do feel the ability to jump into new controller positions would not guarantee ATC quality.
One can always make a case that quality will suffer. I mean in reality it already does, its impractical to give VATSIM controllers the same level of training Professional Air Traffic Controllers have. So from the beginning quality suffers. The question is really what level of quality is acceptable for a hobby/recreational level of ATC ?
If I look at myself I guess I could jump from ZLA to ZAB to handle a load of traffic but I would be providing generic ATC not authentic ATC for ZAB for which I would have to remember all the procedures etc. It could work but quality would suffer.
Do you really need to know 'all' the procedures for ZAB ??An exception was made for areas that are regularly busy (like ZLA,ZNY,ZOB etc) regarding floating controllers.But most areas on VATSIM are not like that. Lets say 'one' aircraft is going from LAX to PHX.Do you really need to know the procedures for Albuquerque ?, El Paso ? Tuscon ?, Santa fe ?. No, you onlyneed know the procedures for Phoenix.Lets break it down further, the aircraft is arriving from the west. Do you really need to knowthe procedure for arrivals from the East, North, and South ? No just the ones for the west. Now there'sonly a few procedures you need be concerned with to handle this one arrival (remember traffic is light).Unless you get 20 planes at once, you'll have plenty of time in a low traffic area to brief yourselfregarding the relevent procedures for each flight to that one airport. Cheat sheets can also be used to quicklybrief controllers on what is most important (terrain/obstrictions etc).When they have flyins on VATSIM, sometimes they are short of Controllers. they use Controllers fromother areas in several cases they have no experience in the fly-in area. It works because in thoses casesthey only brief temselves with the procedures for the sector they are working during that flyin. It doesn't takean experienced VATSIM Controller very long to get up to speed in those cases. Else they wouldn't be able to just jump in and work a fly-in when called upon.But even then the procedures can be streamlined a bit. Do you really need to precisely follow the arrival proceduresdesigned for high traffic in the real world , when you only currently have two arrivals 50 miles apart ??Regards.Ernie.

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One can always make a case that quality will suffer. I mean in reality it already does, its impracticalto give VATSIM controllers the same level of training Professional Air Traffic Controllers have. So from the beginning quality suffers. The question is really what level of quality is acceptable for a hobby/recreational level of ATC ?Do you really need to know 'all' the procedures for ZAB ??An exception was made for areas that are regularly busy (like ZLA,ZNY,ZOB etc) regarding floating controllers.But most areas on VATSIM are not like that. Lets say 'one' aircraft is going from LAX to PHX.Do you really need to know the procedures for Albuquerque ?, El Paso ? Tuscon ?, Santa fe ?. No, you onlyneed know the procedures for Phoenix.Lets break it down further, the aircraft is arriving from the west. Do you really need to knowthe procedure for arrivals from the East, North, and South ? No just the ones for the west. Now there'sonly a few procedures you need be concerned with to handle this one arrival (remember traffic is light).Unless you get 20 planes at once, you'll have plenty of time in a low traffic area to brief yourselfregarding the relevent procedures for each flight to that one airport. Cheat sheets can also be used to quicklybrief controllers on what is most important (terrain/obstrictions etc).When they have flyins on VATSIM, sometimes they are short of Controllers. they use Controllers fromother areas in several cases they have no experience in the fly-in area. It works because in thoses casesthey only brief temselves with the procedures for the sector they are working during that flyin. It doesn't takean experienced VATSIM Controller very long to get up to speed in those cases. Else they wouldn't be able to just jump in and work a fly-in when called upon.But even then the procedures can be streamlined a bit. Do you really need to precisely follow the arrival proceduresdesigned for high traffic in the real world , when you only currently have two arrivals 50 miles apart ??Regards.Ernie.
OK I think I understand what you are saying. I only fly on VATSIM and I guess this idea has some merit as I guess I would be happy with at least some ATC albeit generic...I just feel that this idea goes against the current VATSIM philosophy of specific control areas. The development of VATSIM over the years from what I expereinced in 1997 when everyone flew around Meigs Field and Chicago has been the expansion of coverage and the localized professional ARTCCs. The idea of generic ATC would appear to be taking us backwards in time?Also, if you read the threads here and on VATSIM forums there are pilots saying improve the quality of ATC because they are serious flyers. Will this address that?The idea of high Centers above regions works in Europe, and maybe what you are recommending here? If not then another issue to consider, when I logon I would rather control my home ARTCC rather than another ARTCC? If I am a ZLC controller why would I want to spend time controlling ZAB or ZDV? Or what you are saying is I hop along and keep aircraft under control and provide generic ATC for the completion of flight from say KSLC to KABQ? I think practically for lower traffic ARTCCs this might work but as you pointed out this will not work for high traffic ARTCCs like ZLA where GA traffic etc. would make the job too difficult.Shez

Shez Ansari

Windows 11; CPU: Intel Core i7-8700K; GPU: EVGA GEFORCE GTX 1080Ti 11GB; MB: Gigabyte Z370 AORUS Gaming 5; RAM: 16GB; HD: Samsung 960 Pro 512GB SSD, Samsung 850 Pro 256GB SSD; Display: ASUS 4K 28", Asus UHD 26"

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Also note the pilots wanting as much realism as they can is a very vocal minority while those hopping in and flying with hardly any experience are a non-vocal majority.

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Hi Shez,

OK I think I understand what you are saying. I only fly on VATSIM and I guess this idea has some merit as I guess I would be happy with at least some ATC albeit generic...I just feel that this idea goes against the current VATSIM philosophy of specific control areas.
You're right it does go against the current VATSIM philosopy.Which is why I suggested it probably needs to be implemented by a new ATC organization created from scratchinstead of expecting VATSIM or IVAO to change their ways.
The development of VATSIM over the years from what I expereinced in 1997 when everyone flew around Meigs Field and Chicago has been the expansion of coverage and the localized professional ARTCCs. The idea of generic ATC would appear to be taking us backwards in time?
You can't really go forward with the current VATSIM philosophy, all you can do is maintain the status quo.VATSIM (and IVAO too) has a significant flaw it its philosophy.Often there will be many Controllers logged on with little or no traffic to work, while at thesame time there will be many pilots with no ATC services available to them.This is a flaw that keeps both pilots and Controllers away.
Also, if you read the threads here and on VATSIM forums there are pilots saying improve the quality of ATC because they are serious flyers. Will this address that?
I'd agree with JP in that these 'serious flyers' probably represent a minority of willing participants.But...where are the areas that need improvement ? They are probably the same areas that don't get much traffic.And where are the areas that don't need improvement ? They are probably the areas with the most traffic.We can't expect Controllers to stay in one place with little or no traffic, and expect they'll havegood quality with liitle or no practice. Good Controllers are experienced Controllers.
The idea of high Centers above regions works in Europe, and maybe what you are recommending here?
I don't think so, Not doing much else but watching en-route traffic fly through my airspace seems pretty boring.
If I am a ZLC controller why would I want to spend time controlling ZAB or ZDV?
Because that's where the traffic is (if that's where it is).Does a Controller want to stare at a mostly empty scope for 3 hours, or work some planes ?Regards.Ernie.

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Ernie,

Which is why I suggested it probably needs to be implemented by a new ATC organization created from scratchinstead of expecting VATSIM or IVAO to change their ways.
That's precisely what I did. My solution is aimed at providing guaranteed ATC presence and quality in a limited area. The pilots give up some flexibility in where they fly, in return for a promise of high-quality ATC, 15 hours a day, 7 days a week. The limited geographic area has two effects:1) it concentrates the traffic into a smaller area, increasing the traffic density (case in point, you could be on a global network with 2000 other connected users, and not see/hear a soul for hours at a time, or you could be on this network with a smaller number of pilots flying within 2 ARTCC's (plus 550+ pre-recorded VFR drones).2) it makes it financially feasible to run a system where controllers are compensated for their time (the only method to guarantee ATC coverage). If you tried to cover the entire globe, the model would break down, on both points.

Keith Smith

PilotEdge Founder

 

ASEL (instrument)

Lancair 360

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I have flown on VATSIM many times and I have flown FSX without using ATC at all. I like VATSIM when there are controllers on duty and I hate it when there are none. I don't like being at an airport or enroute without controllers because there are SOOO many pilots who don't know or follow the relatively simple rules of aviation. I have been at Denver when it seemed like a World War One flying field, pilots using whatever runway was pointing in the direction their airplane was headed.

 

At the same time, there are controllers who have a burr up their saddle and think they are kings of the world. I spent twenty years of my life as a controller and always knew it was a Customer Service position.

 

Having said that, I use whatever suits me at the time.


Eric Parker

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I do not refuse to fly on-line, I just prefer the routes, areas I would like to fly during a particular time of the day, season of the year. The few times I have been on-line there just was not a lot of traffic and it really was not where I wanted to fly at that ime. I think it is great that there is an on-line community(s) that gets together and fly on-line for the reasons they have. Happy Flying on or off-line!!!


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