PAJN Runway 26 RNP Approach

[Chaos81 110]

Robert, thanks for the reply.I didn't realize companies were hiring consultants to create procedures for them. Now that you mention it that does make sense, but it's not something that would have ever crossed my mind. Not that I expect this kind of information is publicly available, nor should it be, but I'd love to know how much WestJet or another company pays for the creation of procedures. I suspect it costs quite a bit more than I think.

[Tabs 2,790]

How do different approaches give an airline a competitive edge? Interesting....

I'd venture that it just involves the efficiency of the approach - they can now weave their way right down a narrow mountain valley directly to the runway instead of doing some longer more drawn-out ground-based navaid based approach involving procedure turns and stuff like that. Pretty sure they also have lower minimums so that means less money wasted on go-arounds and diversions.

[559AS 11]

The Alaska Airlines RNP approaches for PAJN have significantly lower minimums then the published approaches such as the LDA for RWY 8 for example. This has allowed them to operate in Alaska's famous SE weather well beyond normal limits. I've got access to these approaches, but as I discussed in the ETOPS tread I started a few weeks ago, I'm not about to risk my career over them. I'll see what I can do, but can't promise anything, as this may be a pretty tall order. That being said, I fully attend to build then fly the RNP for RWY 26 when the NGX is in my hands!!!!

[503(V) Driver 0]

Speaking for my airport (CYQQ), Westjet has gone to the trouble of implementing RNP as a way to cut some corners on regular arrivals. Their RNP approach for Rwy 12 starts at a point 5NM north of the field, then bends around in a left turn to align with the runway on a 4NM final. It's almost like a visual approach, but with limits of about 300' ASL. This saves a lot of time and vectoring on ATC's part, as well as shaving off some flying miles for the pilots. The approach into Kelowna (CYLW) is a real beauty!Jordan Labossiere

[Tabs 2,790]

The Alaska Airlines RNP approaches for PAJN has significantly lower minimums then the published approaches such as the LDA for RWY 8 for example. This has allowed them to operate in Alaska's famous SE weather well beyond normal limits. I've got access to these approaches, but as I discussed in the ETOPS tread I started a few weeks ago, I'm no about to risk my career over them. I'll see what I can do, but can't promise anything, as this may be a pretty tall order. That being said, I fully attend to build then fly the RNP for RWY 26 when the NGX is in my hands!!!!

Please don't do anything that jeopardizes your job on account of us - as RSR said we're working on acquiring this data legitimately, we appreciate the thought, but please don't do that.

[559AS 11]

Please don't do anything that jeopardizes your job on account of us - as RSR said we're working on acquiring this data legitimately, we appreciate the thought, but please don't do that.

Not to worry Ryan, I wont. I would not, and have not released anything without the proper clearance from the Alaska Air Group. Love the NGX, but I'm not going to blow 14 years over it.

[mcbellette 145]

Mike-I think it is more a matter of liability limitation and costs. Nearly all major airlines have "company procedures" in their data collection, and these are identified by special markers to the pilots.At my line we had a number of company specific procedures that were designed to smooth the massive traffic inflows to KIAD during our peak hub operation times. Nobody else would even know these particular procedures existed if they were flying into KIAD- and after having spent the money to develop the procedures and get them certified- our company wasn't about to go sharing the wealth...RNP procedures right now are being developed primarily by individual air carriers in order to ease their access to airports with complex airspace or terrain features. Companies like WestJet hire VERY expensive consultants to create the procedures for them- and these procedures give WestJet a competitive advantage in their markets... So why share?

Robert, if RNP approaches are airline-specific, how does ATC at an airport know which route that airline's aircraft will take on approach? I guess a simple way of putting it is, if the aircraft isn't following a standard approach, how will the ATC know their route, speeds, altitudes, etc to ensure separation from other aircraft?

[antic81 57]

Hi Guys,Here is a nice little video from WestJet showing RNP's in action and how they work.http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-5284773282371819535#Enjoy!

[Jeff_B 8]

I'd be fairly shocked if they were.

Same. I doubt we would see QANTAS RNP approaches into Queenstown - they were developed by Naveris (hope i spelt that correct) soley for QANTAS airline. Doubt we would see them.

[michal 44]

Robert, if RNP approaches are airline-specific

They are not exactly airlines-specific, it only means they are not published. I don't think there is any airport with more than a couple of those RNPs, RNPs are still very rare. Also lets not confuse controllers primary responsibility - aircraft separation (and they can do it regardless of any approaches) and pilot's responsibility - flying the approach.

[Jeff_B 8]

They are not exactly airlines-specific, it only means they are not published. I don't think there is any airport with more than a couple of those RNPs, RNPs are still very rare. Also lets not confuse controllers primary responsibility - aircraft separation (and they can do it regardless of any approaches) and pilot's responsibility - flying the approach.

They arent but certain RNP approaches are developed for an airline at their request and for there use only. Saw in an Aust Aviation mag article on QF RNP into NZQN - couldnt quite make out all the waypoints but they were different to what NZ airservices published plates were for the airfield. if you know what i mean.

[rsrandazzo 6,353]

Robert, if RNP approaches are airline-specific, how does ATC at an airport know which route that airline's aircraft will take on approach? I guess a simple way of putting it is, if the aircraft isn't following a standard approach, how will the ATC know their route, speeds, altitudes, etc to ensure separation from other aircraft?

Matthew-That was a question I asked our PIO a number of times while we were having these procedures added to our database "back in the day." (He used to stop by my office for coffee and chit chat on a frequent basis. One of the best "Feds" i've ever known.) What I do know is that the controllers have access to this information and it is part of their sector data plan, I presume.For example when coming back home to KIAD, we would frequently get assigned one of our company transitions and this would reduce the controller's workload since they could predict our lateral/vertical path based on that procedure. While they would vector non company traffic on the same/similar arrivals, we would just get the arrival assigned.If they wanted us to do something different, they would simply say so.

[mcbellette 145]

Speaking of time/cost saving approaches, I read in the Australian Aviation magazine a number of issues ago that there are talks among some airlines - Qantas included, I believe - and Airservices Australia (the body which provides ATC and radar services to Australian airports/airspace) as to the pro's and con's to increasing the approach angle from the usual 3.5 degrees to make it steeper. The rationale behind this was that a steeper approach would require less engine thrust and a more steady descent from cruise, hence making the approach and landing quieter while also burning less fuel. Have you heard of anything like this in the States, Robert? It seems like a good idea worth investigating.

[503(V) Driver 0]

Robert,"What I do know is that the controllers have access to this information and it is part of their sector data plan, I presume."As ATC in Canada, we have access to RNP approaches for Westjet. We get access through the Restricted Canada Air Pilot. All the aircraft does is requests the initial fix for the RNP approach, and the rest would be handled as any RNAV approach. But we always have a copy of the applicable approach procedure at the controlling position.

[michal 44]

Have you heard of anything like this in the States, Robert? It seems like a good idea worth investigating.

So far RNP approaches in the US are only about beating the weather and getting to the airport in weather conditions that otherwise would be impossible. One exception may be the KDCA RNP where it is primarily about the noise footprint. The steep approaches that save fuel are in experimental phase and are separate from RNP, they are called tailored arrivals. Such approaches do not have a fixed 'map' but rather the approach sequence is up-linked by ATC to the specially equipped aircraft. The airport where most such trails are conducted in US (over 3500 flown) is San Francisco but they are usually flown at night when traffic is light. I think we are still a long way from times when majority of airports in the US will have it available and they will be flown even during peak times.