"Taxi into position and hold" instruction

[Guest Tim W]

Hi Ilari>> although I must say it felt strange to be>cleared to land following a heavy B767 and -- if memory serves>me right -- we touched down while they were still on the rwy!>>Yes thats my point, Obviously in the US "clear to land" doesnt mean the runway is clear it means you are clear to land providing the aircraft ahead doesn't have a problem. I have always found that a bit ambigious I'm afraid. If I am cleared to land or take off I want to be absolutely sure that the runway is mine. I don't want any confusions such as happened many years ago in thick fog at Tenerife.Just my thoughts on the matter. Doesn't make me right and the US process wrong. Just a difference of opinion. It soesn't stop me flying in the USA I am just much more aware of whats going on and it sure keeps me on my toes.BestTimhttp://www.spottedantelope.com/bwomack/ima...aam-sim_sig.gif

[ilarikousa 0]

What kind of incident was there at Tenerife?

[MikeAdamo 51]

A KLM B747 collided with a Pan American Boeing 747 on the runway while attempting to takeoff in thick fog. The KLM aircraft was instructed to back-taxi on runway 30, turn at the end, and wait for departure. The Pan American crew was instructed to follow KLM, but turn left off the runway on a taxiway before reaching the end of the runway. As the KLM aircraft turned to depart on runway 12, the Captain immediately powered up for takeoff. The First Officer said that they didn't have ATC clearance yet. The Captain, in his haste responded with 'I know that, you call for it.' As the First Officer was copying the clearance, which told the crew what route to fly, but did not give permission to take off, the Captain again initiated takeoff. The Pan Am 747 was still inching its way through the thick fog looking for their assigned runway turnoff, saw the shaking lights of the KLM aircraft at near takeoff speed through the fog, and applied full power in an attempt to clear the runway. The KLM 747 struck the Pan American plane just behind the cockpit just after rotation. 574 people died. Many from the Pan Am aircraft survived.Tragic.....

[Guest GalacticCowboy]

Well, in theory I suppose... but if you proceeded to take off and he is flying his go-around procedure, you're going to potentially end up VERY close to one another.

[ilarikousa 0]

Truly tragic.. Lesson #1: Obey ATC!

[Guest Tim W]

>Truly tragic.. Lesson #1: Obey ATC!Yes, in an ideal world. In this instance there was a language difficulty. The controller was Spanish, the pilots, Dutch and American. Added to that it was very foggy and due to a bomb scare at Las Palmas a lot of aircraft were diverted to Tenerife. Aircraft were parked all over the place, the KLM crew were in a hurry because they were running out of flight hours.You can read the CVR transcript of the accident here http://www.planecrashinfo.com/cvr770327.htmI think it's still the worst accident for loss of life in aviation history.Timhttp://www.spottedantelope.com/bwomack/ima...aam-sim_sig.gif

[MikeB 0]

In the US this is called "Anticipating Separation". It's used all the time to assure the efficient flow of traffic.From FAA Order 7110.65, Air Trafic Control:3-10-6. ANTICIPATING SEPARATION Landing clearance to succeeding aircraft in a landing sequence need not be withheld if you observe the positions of the aircraft and determine that prescribed runway separation will exist when the aircraft cross the landing threshold. Issue traffic information to the succeeding aircraft if not previously reported and appropriate traffic holding in position or departing prior to their arrival. EXAMPLE-"American Two Forty-Five cleared to land, number two following United Boeing Seven-Thirty-Seven two mile final, traffic will depart prior to your arrival.""American Two Forty-Five cleared to land, number two following United Boeing Seven-Thirty-Seven two mile final, traffic will be an MD 88 holding in position.""American Two Forty-Five cleared to land, following United Boeing Seven-Thirty-Seven two mile final, traffic will depart prior to your arrival." Mike Bromley

[yellow5 0]

Just curious, but why are you not using a box version of FS9? How does one get a press gold version? You must work for reviewer or something. I would think the gold version would be the same as the box.

[ilarikousa 0]

I was a beta tester for the game by means of the MS press program and thus got the press gold copy for free (free-lance FS journalist). Just was curious to know if thhe inconsistensy I described had been fixed in the final boxed version, as sometimes not even the press-issued gold code and the box-version are not identical

[MadDog 353]

Hi again guys,Just wanted to clarify my earlier post... mainly because many real-world pilots mistakenly believe that they can only land on a vacant runway. It's NOT true! In the U.S., it is entirely possible to have more than one aircraft rolling down the SAME runway at the SAME time. For example, the runway at my airport is 9001' feet long. The landing runway separation requirement for a small single-engine airplane is 3000'. Therefore, it would be legal to have 3 landing Cessna 172s occupying that runway at the same time (as long as they're separated by 3000'). I guess, theoretically, it would be possible to have 4... but NOT very likely. In most cases, jets do require a clear runway to land - but there are even exceptions to this rule. Here in KMGM, we often have up to 4 landing jets rolling down the runway at the same time - can anyone guess on how we pull that off?See Ya,Marc

[chumley 0]

One x 747 = 4 landing jets. Two on each wing.Andy b

[Guest Nathan Palmer]

I would like see a 3000 feet seperation between jets using your formula!! LOLNP