VNAV...FMC U10.8 or FMC U10.7 software?

[Renzo 0]

I believe with the old MCP style, it does not have the CATIIIb, but with the nex Honywell MCP, it did. But I stand to be corrected.

[badderjet 181]

Hi Everybody, I´m not a professional, but I know that the 737NG (depending on the Version) is not able to perform a CATIIIB (ROLLOUT and hold center line via Autopilot) approch.Dose this ability depends on the FMC Version? Has the PMDG 737NG CATIIIB abilities?Kind RegardsSteffen Lutz

I think it's been said just recently that there would be a selectable fail-passive/fail-operational autoland system so yes, it's quite safe to say it would be CATIIIB capable, including align and rollout.

I believe with the old MCP style, it does not have the CATIIIb, but with the nex Honywell MCP, it did. But I stand to be corrected.

Well I believe you are correct, sort of, as I have posed pretty much the same question some time ago. Guess I didn't get a definite answer but I'd have to dig out that thread again, so thanks for the unintended reminder. OTOH I just remember an NG driver once told me it might have to do with 2- vs. 3-axes A/P. Now it could be the old one is only 2-axes (+Y/D) while the Collins is 3-axes, hence capable of align and rollout. He wasn't really sure though, I can just say on that particular flight where I asked him he was flying the old one, and that was certainly IIIA only.

[Tabs 2,790]

Hi Everybody, I´m not a professional, but I know that the 737NG (depending on the Version) is not able to perform a CATIIIB (ROLLOUT and hold center line via Autopilot) approch.Dose this ability depends on the FMC Version? Has the PMDG 737NG CATIIIB abilities?Kind RegardsSteffen Lutz

I believe with the old MCP style, it does not have the CATIIIb, but with the nex Honywell MCP, it did. But I stand to be corrected.

I think it's been said just recently that there would be a selectable fail-passive/fail-operational autoland system so yes, it's quite safe to say it would be CATIIIB capable, including align and rollout.Well I believe you are correct, sort of, as I have posed pretty much the same question some time ago. Guess I didn't get a definite answer but I'd have to dig out that thread again, so thanks for the unintended reminder. OTOH I just remember an NG driver once told me it might have to do with 2- vs. 3-axes A/P. Now it could be the old one is only 2-axes (+Y/D) while the Collins is 3-axes, hence capable of align and rollout. He wasn't really sure though, I can just say on that particular flight where I asked him he was flying the old one, and that was certainly IIIA only.

This is all fully and realistically modeled in the NGX:For the Fail Operational Autoland option to work, you also need the the Collins MCP and the ISFD options selected. (these will be automatically turned on if you enable the option.) Those two things alone do not give an NG fail operational capability though, it's a software and mechanical modification as well, so it remains a separate option on its own. You can have a Collins+ISFD aircraft without fail operational autoland - in fact that's exactly the configuration in place at a couple of our testers' airlines.The Fail Operational Autoland option essentially enables the more modern autoland system that's seen in the 747-400, 757/767 and 777. You get LAND2/3 annunciations, FLARE guidance from the FD and rudder control that includes ROLLOUT guidance and automatic crosswind de-crabbing. You also get a new MFD button below the normal ENG and SYS buttons that says "C/R" on it - this is the cancel/recall button for the autoland mode messages that can appear on the upper DU in the event of reversions or failures during the approach.The third inertial source for the system is provided by the ISFD's internal AHRS combined with the two normal IRUs. The Collins MCP actually has a hidden third autopilot channel that is not pilot controllable - this sends commands to a rudder servo that is part of the option/modification.When in the older Fail Passive Autoland mode, you will not get LAND2/3 annunciations, FD guidance in the flare or any rudder control while doing the autoland. As rollout guidance is part of the spec for Cat IIIB, fail passive systems are limited to Cat IIIA. At airlines like SWA, they actually chose to outfit the HGS system and their Cat III approaches are handflown by the captain. You can do it any way you'd like with the NGX!

[MrKen 3]

This is all fully and realistically modeled in the NGX:For the Fail Operational Autoland option to work, you also need the the Collins MCP and the ISFD options selected. (these will be automatically turned on if you enable the option.) Those two things alone do not give an NG fail operational capability though, it's a software and mechanical modification as well, so it remains a separate option on its own. You can have a Collins+ISFD aircraft without fail operational autoland - in fact that's exactly the configuration in place at a couple of our testers' airlines.The Fail Operational Autoland option essentially enables the more modern autoland system that's seen in the 747-400, 757/767 and 777. You get LAND2/3 annunciations, FLARE guidance from the FD and rudder control that includes ROLLOUT guidance and automatic crosswind de-crabbing. You also get a new MFD button below the normal ENG and SYS buttons that says "C/R" on it - this is the cancel/recall button for the autoland mode messages that can appear on the upper DU in the event of reversions or failures during the approach.The third inertial source for the system is provided by the ISFD's internal AHRS combined with the two normal IRUs. The Collins MCP actually has a hidden third autopilot channel that is not pilot controllable - this sends commands to a rudder servo that is part of the option/modification.When in the older Fail Passive Autoland mode, you will not get LAND2/3 annunciations, FD guidance in the flare or any rudder control while doing the autoland. As rollout guidance is part of the spec for Cat IIIB, fail passive systems are limited to Cat IIIA. At airlines like SWA, they actually chose to outfit the HGS system and their Cat III approaches are handflown by the captain. You can do it any way you'd like with the NGX!

That's just awesome. I don't understand half of it but it's still awesome.

[Chaos81 110]

Snip...

That's awesome.Is the "C/R" button something that is on all NG's with the fail operational autoland option, or is that an option for the option so to speak? I'm wondering if I can go look at cockpit pictures to see which airlines have the fail operational autoland option.

[Tabs 2,790]

The C/R button is required for it. There's relatively few that have it right, I believe it's a fairly expensive option - only airlines that do a lot of flying into airports where visibility is commonly down to Cat IIIB minimums would get it.Look at Jetairfly's 700's on a.net - they have some with the option.

[chapstick 2,755]

And the one pic on a.net of Ethiopian's 737-800 shows the C/R button.

[Cras 6]

This thread has some very cool information. Thanks Ryan for sharing this. Very impressive this stuff is in the NGX package.

[badderjet 181]

The Fail Operational Autoland option essentially enables the more modern autoland system that's seen in the 747-400, 757/767 and 777. You get LAND2/3 annunciations, [...]The third inertial source for the system is provided by the ISFD's internal AHRS combined with the two normal IRUs. The Collins MCP actually has a hidden third autopilot channel that is not pilot controllable - this sends commands to a rudder servo that is part of the option/modification.

Well, I was once taught you'd need three A/Ps for fail-operational capabilities (as that's part of the concept, sort of), so that was why I always wondered how that works on the apparently 2-A/P equipped Airbuses and NGs worked. So the LAND "3" obviously indication treats that third channel as the third A/P. I didn't know there was a hidden channel, but is explains a lot (anyone a clue if the 'buses use a similar setup? I believe there is no 'bus >A300 that is not fail-operation but I stand to be corrected). Still, you say it controls the rudder - but just the rudder? What if, say, A/P A fails - then B plus that third channel remain, and for fail-operational they would need to be able complete the landing. Who would crosschecK A/P B in that case? Don't A and B usually check each other?

Is the "C/R" button something that is on all NG's with the fail operational autoland option, or is that an option for the option so to speak? I'm wondering if I can go look at cockpit pictures to see which airlines have the fail operational autoland option.

Very interesting. That made me actually check a few more pics on a.net because I had thought of a few Collins MCP equipped ones they were all fail-operational then (cause I didn't know about the C/R requirement), and now to find out they are lacking that very button, so no IIIB for them I guess. Thanks for the heads-up.

[Chaos81 110]

Thanks for the reply, Ryan. I didn't consider that it's an expensive option that not everyone would buy, but that makes perfect sense now that you've said it. I looked at the Jetairfly pics and the Ethiopian picture Alex point out and it looks strange to see the button, simply because I'm so used to only seeing two.That did lead to another question, is there ever a fourth button? Not necessarily for the FOA option, but for anything else.

Very interesting. That made me actually check a few more pics on a.net because I had thought of a few Collins MCP equipped ones they were all fail-operational then (cause I didn't know about the C/R requirement), and now to find out they are lacking that very button, so no IIIB for them I guess. Thanks for the heads-up.

I'm glad Ryan responded, otherwise I would have been sitting here and looking through a ton of pictures trying to find it.

[BBBE 0]

Thanks for the reply, Ryan. I didn't consider that it's an expensive option that not everyone would buy, but that makes perfect sense now that you've said it. I looked at the Jetairfly pics and the Ethiopian picture Alex point out and it looks strange to see the button, simply because I'm so used to only seeing two.That did lead to another question, is there ever a fourth button? Not necessarily for the FOA option, but for anything else.I'm glad Ryan responded, otherwise I would have been sitting here and looking through a ton of pictures trying to find it.

Hi,could you sent me a link to the picture?!Kind RegardsSteffen LutzPS: Thanks for the Infos regarding CATIIIB!

[Chaos81 110]

could you sent me a link to the picture?!

Unfortunately no, because AVSIM doesn't allow linking of A.net pictures. Just go to airliners.net, do a search for a 737, from Jetairfly or Ethiopian, and category flight decks and you'll be able to find them. Nothing too special as it's just a third button, but it's something I'd never seen before and that's always fun. :(

[badderjet 181]

airliners.net/photo/Jetairfly-(TUI-Airlines/Boeing-737-7K5/1787415/Lairliners.net/photo/Ethiopian-Airlines/Boeing-737-8HO/1864299/L as there is only one pic of that particular airline anyways.You've gotta copy'n'paste em for said reasons.

[Chaos81 110]

airliners.net/photo/Jetairfly-(TUI-Airlines/Boeing-737-7K5/1787415/Lairliners.net/photo/Ethiopian-Airlines/Boeing-737-8HO/1864299/L as there is only one pic of that particular airline anyways.You've gotta copy'n'paste em for said reasons.

Ahh, I see what I was doing before. Seems like you can't post the links with http in front, but they obviously work without it. Thanks for posting, now I know what to do. :(

[3-2-1-Now 126]

Even though you can't do predictive windshear, can you do basic windshear alerts?Best regards,Robin.