What RAM to buy

[SpiritFlyer 987]

Hi! I've been on the fence to upgrading my pretty new i7 rig for a while, mostly because im such a geek :D I'm still not 100% on upgrading as my current comp is handling fsx pretty good. But lets say I were to upgrade...I'm looking at a i5 2500K and an Asus P8P67 Deluxe B3, both seem to be handling the FSXMARK11 pretty fantastic. Right now I have 3x2GB Mushkin Redline RAM at 1600 6-8-6-24, which I am very satisified with; but if I were to go Sandy Bridge, would 3 sticks work? Or would I have to drop one stick and in that case would 4GB be sufficient for flying complex demanding planes like the PMDG 747X/MD11 in FSX on win7 64? If no on both accounts, what is your advice to me? Should I buy a 2x4GB kit? I've been looking at mushkins Dual Kits and I haven't been able to find any with a low timing, most are CL8-9. I've been taught that timings were important to the stability and smoothness of FSX, is this still true with SB?Thanks in advance

Hi William,The ram we have is amongst the best there is for FSX. I am convinced that it is a critical part of the great performance I get and 4x2g is best. If you cannot find another stick, it is best to get one that you can downclock to match the Mushkins at 6-8-6-24.If I were you I would send a PM to Kaydub (next above this post). Look what he has!SWAP THREADKind regards,

[alainneedle1 97]

Have you read any reviews on these? I have...Are you sure that 1600 CAS 7 is better in FSX than 2133 CAS 9? What if you run your 2133 at 1866 CAS 8? What would make the 1600 CAS 7 superior? 1600 CAS 7 has less bandwidth and higher latency according to benchmarks. I thought bandwidth and latency were important...KDub

I've tested it myself, my rams are rated at 2000MHz at 7-7-7-21 1T, if I set them at 2133 9-9-9-27 the performance in SuperPi is less and in other test to, I'll take 2000MHz 7-7-7-21 any day over 2200MHz at 9-9-9-27 (on the same platform).1866 CAS 7 will make sense compare to 2133 CAS 9 but 1866 CAS 8 would not, here, from Nick,

SAMPLES OF MEMORY SPEED/TIMING

Here is a list of MAX memory timing per speed a user should strive for.. lower than posted is better and there are memory product out there that run lower timing than posted.. they are typically expensive and that is what you pay for DDR2 800 4-4-4DDR2 1066 5-5-5DDR3 1333 6-6-6 (1st or 2nd Generation)DDR3 1600 7-7-7 (1st or 2nd Generation)DDR3 1800/1866 8-8-8 (1st or 2nd Generation)DDR3 2000 (and up) 9-9-9 (1st or 2nd Generation) That being said here are the values a user SHOULD look for in order to obtain highest FSX performance with respect to CPU/Memory communicationDDR2 800 3-3-3DDR2 1066 4-4-4DDR3 1333 5-5-5 (1st or 2nd Generation)DDR3 1600 6-6-6 (1st or 2nd Generation)DDR3 1800/1866 7-7-7 (1st or 2nd Generation) Note: 1800/1866 is really useless compared to 1600 with respect to the right memory timing. If a user wishes to run very high memory speed, opt for 2000 with tighter timing especially running i7. 1st generation DDR3 has issues with the northbridge running large amounts of memory (2x2GB or more). i7 D0 stepping processors and the x58 chipset do not have those issues but still typically requires a higher QPI/DRAM (over 1.37v) to accomplish which can be dangerous to the life of a processor. DDR3 2000 7-7-7 (1st or 2nd Generation) 8-8-8 can be used however 7-7-7 is FAR better.

[cmeeks 8]

In today's market we don't see Rams with timing like 2000MHz 7-7-7-21 or 1600MHz 6-6-6-18 anymore

That's because these days most of us are looking for 4GB modules instead of 2GB.

SWAP THREAD

$75 is cheap! I sold mine for $140, though they were used less than a week. Was Kaydub able to get all 4 sticks to run at 1600 6-8-6-24?

[MrGreen 0]

Hi William,The ram we have is amongst the best there is for FSX. I am convinced that it is a critical part of the great performance I get and 4x2g is best. If you cannot find another stick, it is best to get one that you can downclock to match the Mushkins at 6-8-6-24.If I were you I would send a PM to Kaydub (next above this post). Look what he has!SWAP THREADKind regards,

Thanks for the heads up Stephen. Is there any performance drawbacks to running 4 modules rather than 2? Kaydub, where do you live? EDIT: Depending on where Kaydub lives the freight could get pretty expensive. A 2x2GB 6-8-6-24 1600Mhz Mushkin Kit (serial 996805) is however available where I live. If I were to purchase that kit I would have 5 afaik identical 2GB modules, and I'd be able to run 4x2GB.

[SpiritFlyer 987]

Hi again William,

Thanks for the heads up Stephen. Is there any performance drawbacks to running 4 modules rather than 2?

None that I am aware of. They are stable and as fast as greased lightening.

A 2x2GB 6-8-6-24 1600Mhz Mushkin Kit (serial 996805) is however available where I live. If I were to purchase that kit I would have 5 afaik identical 2GB modules, and I'd be able to run 4x2GB.

Perfect! Buying a dual set is how I went from 6g of Mushkins with my 1366 socket to 8g with Sandy Bridge, which gave me one stick left over. The guy that bought my i7 930 and Asus P6TD Deluxe motherboard ordered a set of two more, and I sold him my extra one, making 6g altogether for him, and 8g for me. Everyone was happy all around. The dual and triple channel sets mix and match well. However, it is likely not a bad idea to have an extra 2g stick in case one ever goes haywire.Kind regards,PS: It is a good idea to upgrade. The FSX performance difference for me from a nearly flawless i7 930 @ 4.3 GHZ to what I have today was substantial in all respects, and well worth it. Go 4 it!

[MrGreen 0]

PS: It is a good idea to upgrade. The FSX performance difference for me from a nearly flawless i7 930 @ 4.3 GHZ to what I have today was substantial in all respects, and well worth it. Go 4 it!

Stephen, thanks for all the help!I have one last question, or two rather, as I said in the start of this thread, I've been looking at the 2500K and a P8P67 Pro/Deluxe motherboard. I have heard different opinions on this, but is the 2600K really any better at overclocking or in FSX? Also is there any real reason to go for the Deluxe rather than the EVO/Pro version? Granted, they are almost the same in price (the mobo's) but I'd like to make the upgrade cheap if the performance difference between the different CPU/Mobos aren't noticeable.The Deluxe has 16+2 in VRM/Phase Power vs 12+2 on the Pro, I've heard from some that it doesn't matter when OCing and that the batch is more important, is this true? Lastly, the 2600K has a higher stock freq and is HT enabled, but afaik FSX doesn't use HT and from the FSX Mark11-bench on this forum the AVG/MIN FPS difference seem to be insignificant, is there any reason why I should go for the more expensive setup? I want to reach 5Ghz so that the upgrade is worthwhile, and if the 2600K is proven to be more OC-able, I'll buy it.Thank You

[cmeeks 8]

Random question, Stephen, but it kind of relates to the topic. What kind of MaxxMEM results do you get with 1600 6-8-6-24? I thought I asked you before, but I couldn't find it anywhere. I just did a 3-test average of two different settings and got the results in the attached summary. I was primarily curious to see how your latency would match up.

[kaydub 3]

I've tested it myself, my rams are rated at 2000MHz at 7-7-7-21 1T, if I set them at 2133 9-9-9-27 the performance in SuperPi is less and in other test to, I'll take 2000MHz 7-7-7-21 any day over 2200MHz at 9-9-9-27 (on the same platform).1866 CAS 7 will make sense compare to 2133 CAS 9 but 1866 CAS 8 would not, here, from Nick,

SAMPLES OF MEMORY SPEED/TIMING

Here is a list of MAX memory timing per speed a user should strive for.. lower than posted is better and there are memory product out there that run lower timing than posted.. they are typically expensive and that is what you pay for DDR2 800 4-4-4DDR2 1066 5-5-5DDR3 1333 6-6-6 (1st or 2nd Generation)DDR3 1600 7-7-7 (1st or 2nd Generation)DDR3 1800/1866 8-8-8 (1st or 2nd Generation)DDR3 2000 (and up) 9-9-9 (1st or 2nd Generation) That being said here are the values a user SHOULD look for in order to obtain highest FSX performance with respect to CPU/Memory communicationDDR2 800 3-3-3DDR2 1066 4-4-4DDR3 1333 5-5-5 (1st or 2nd Generation)DDR3 1600 6-6-6 (1st or 2nd Generation)DDR3 1800/1866 7-7-7 (1st or 2nd Generation) Note: 1800/1866 is really useless compared to 1600 with respect to the right memory timing. If a user wishes to run very high memory speed, opt for 2000 with tighter timing especially running i7. 1st generation DDR3 has issues with the northbridge running large amounts of memory (2x2GB or more). i7 D0 stepping processors and the x58 chipset do not have those issues but still typically requires a higher QPI/DRAM (over 1.37v) to accomplish which can be dangerous to the life of a processor. DDR3 2000 7-7-7 (1st or 2nd Generation) 8-8-8 can be used however 7-7-7 is FAR better.

Yes, I am very aware of Nick's position. He MAY be right, but he also says the 2600K is superior to the 2500K for FSX and that to differ is "nonsense". I have tried both, and all that I can say is that I can't see any difference in performance. I am staying with my 2600K, but I also have to say that based on Nick's position, I paid $300 for my 8 GB of Mushkin 1600 CAS 6, and that when the 2133 CAS 9 was on Shell Shocker at NewEgg for $99, I jumped on it as a trial. Admittedly, this was on my 1156 i7-860, but replacing 4X2GB of 1600 CAS 6 with 2X4GB of 2133 CAS 9 running at 2000 was a stunning upgrade! Absolutely night and day! No comparison! The 2133 kicked the 1600 all over the place and that performance difference I COULD see. Just sayin'. :Raised Eyebrow: Kdub

[SpiritFlyer 987]

Random question, Stephen, but it kind of relates to the topic. What kind of MaxxMEM results do you get with 1600 6-8-6-24? I thought I asked you before, but I couldn't find it anywhere. I just did a 3-test average of two different settings and got the results in the attached summary. I was primarily curious to see how your latency would match up.

Here it is Corey:Kind regards,

[SpiritFlyer 987]

Stephen, thanks for all the help!I have one last question, or two rather, as I said in the start of this thread, I've been looking at the 2500K and a P8P67 Pro/Deluxe motherboard. I have heard different opinions on this, but is the 2600K really any better at overclocking or in FSX? Also is there any real reason to go for the Deluxe rather than the EVO/Pro version? Granted, they are almost the same in price (the mobo's) but I'd like to make the upgrade cheap if the performance difference between the different CPU/Mobos aren't noticeable.The Deluxe has 16+2 in VRM/Phase Power vs 12+2 on the Pro, I've heard from some that it doesn't matter when OCing and that the batch is more important, is this true? Lastly, the 2600K has a higher stock freq and is HT enabled, but afaik FSX doesn't use HT and from the FSX Mark11-bench on this forum the AVG/MIN FPS difference seem to be insignificant, is there any reason why I should go for the more expensive setup? I want to reach 5Ghz so that the upgrade is worthwhile, and if the 2600K is proven to be more OC-able, I'll buy it.Thank You

Hi again William,At the risk of having my opinion trashed like Nick's, the 2600K is a wiser investment (for me) than the 2500K for a number of reasons, including that I have read that they are of a higher bin quality than the 2500K. Although HT does not benefit FSX directly, there is a good chance that MS Flight (which may be just around the corner) will like it a lot, and besides, it is already helpful with a host of other applications. The $ difference between the two is small when compared with the overall cost of the total FSX engine. For me, the 2600K is considerably more future proof for a small premium. This computer will be my MS Flight machine.As far as which ASUS board, I am less certain. The primary reason I bought the ASUS P8P67 Deluxe (B2 replaced by B3) was because the Sandy Bridge MSI MB I ordered was DOA, and this one was available sooner than some others. However, I do like the USB 3.0 connections being available through the front of the case, although I have nothing that uses them yet. I cannot tell you that the Phase control differences matter because I have no personal experience with OCing anything other than the ASUS P8P67 Deluxe. This MB overclocks easily to 5.0 GHZ without drama or stress. What more can I say? That is kind of as good as it gets.As far as using the Mushkin 1600 Ram is concerned, they were one of the only ones that would fit under my Prolimatech heatsink, and since I already owned a few sticks, it was a no-brainer. The CPU, MB, RAM, GPU and SSDs seem to like FSX and each other a lot, so I am pleased with the performance envelope. But, as poor Nick has said so often: "Your mileage may vary." Kind regards,

[kaydub 3]

Hi again William,At the risk of having my opinion trashed like Nick's, the 2600K is a wiser investment (for me) than the 2500K for a number of reasons, including that I have read that they are of a higher bin quality than the 2500K. Although HT does not benefit FSX directly, there is a good chance that MS Flight (which may be just around the corner) will like it a lot, and besides, it is already helpful with a host of other applications. The $ difference between the two is small when compared with the overall cost of the total FSX engine. For me, the 2600K is considerably more future proof for a small premium. This computer will be my MS Flight machine.As far as which ASUS board, I am less certain. The primary reason I bought the ASUS P8P67 Deluxe (B2 replaced by B3) was because the Sandy Bridge MSI MB I ordered was DOA, and this one was available sooner than some others. However, I do like the USB 3.0 connections being available through the front of the case, although I have nothing that uses them yet. I cannot tell you that the Phase control differences matter because I have no experience with OCing anything other than what I have. This MB overclocks easily to 5.0 GHZ without drama or stress. What more can I say? That is kind of as good as it gets.As far as using the Mushkin 1600 Ram is concerned, they were one of the only ones that would fit under my Prolimatech heatsink, and since I already owned a few sticks, it was a no-brainer. The CPU, MB, RAM, GPU and SSDs seem to like FSX and each other a lot, so I am pleased with the performance envelope. But, as poor Nick has said so often: "Your mileage may vary." Kind regards,

I'm not trying to "trash", but as you said, your mileage may vary. I stuck with the 2600K because I can afford the $135. It may pay off, or it may not. For those on a budget, I can say that I didn't see a difference...I can also throw away the $300 1600s, although I may try them on my 2600K just to see.

[MrGreen 0]

Hmmm, I might just go with the 2600K then. I wonder though, is it really necessary* to buy the RAM? For gaming and FSX flying 4Gb should be enough, right? EDIT: Added a word :Thinking:

[SpiritFlyer 987]

Hmmm, I might just go with the 2600K then. I wonder though, is it really necessary* to buy the RAM? For gaming and FSX flying 4Gb should be enough, right? EDIT: Added a word :Thinking:

William,That is the conventional wisdom alright so it should be OK. No experience with 4g myself, although I have followed what others report. Kind regards,

[SpiritFlyer 987]

I'm not trying to "trash", but as you said, your mileage may vary. I stuck with the 2600K because I can afford the $135. It may pay off, or it may not. For those on a budget, I can say that I didn't see a difference...I can also throw away the $300 1600s, although I may try them on my 2600K just to see.

Kaydub,It is discussing differences of opinion that sharpen and enable all of us to make better decisions than we otherwise might. Thanks for the testing and reporting you do as it helps make us all move forward. You are quite right, for everyday FSX use the 2500K looks like it matches the 2600K, so for someone looking for maximum bang for the FSX FPS buck, the 2500K will do it. In regards to which RAM to acquire, opinion is changing rather quickly as more data and experience accumulates, so I am sure we will see a clear consensus emerge amongst us. Kind regards,

[kaydub 3]

Kaydub,It is discussing differences of opinion that sharpen and enable all of us to make better decisions than we otherwise might. Thanks for the testing and reporting you do as it helps make us all move forward. You are quite right, for everyday FSX use the 2500K looks like it matches the 2600K, so for someone looking for maximum bang for the FSX FPS buck, the 2500K will do it. In regards to which RAM to acquire, opinion is changing rather quickly as more data and experience accumulates, so I am sure we will see a clear consensus emerge amongst us. Kind regards,

Oh yeah, and may I say that your testing has helped me tremendously. I lost a lot of money when I Ebayed my GTX 470 but you were so happy with your 580 when you got it and there were no 580s to be found at that time. An Indie shop near me had one, (they almost always get one of the top of the line of everything, then sell it as "clearance" a year later because their prices can't compete with the NewEggs, etc), and this one time I spent top $ for a component. They had it at $539 and sold it to me for $529 because I have purchased there over the years. Now, that was $30 more than everywhere else that was out of stock, so $30 was the bird in the hand adage. I don't regret that purchase for a moment, and many people say it is a waste to buy a 580 over a 560Ti. I know you like yours and that was good enough for me. I like mine, too. Do you have the F1 Mustang? That's what pushed me to buy new gear. I could never avoid big stutters and chop with it low over Seattle, and some chop everywhere else. The 2000 CL9 setting vastly changed things for me on my Lynnfield and convinced me to go Sandy Bridge when I saw the improvement that came with increased bandwidth. I will Maxx test my 2600K later this afternoon.Kaydub