Innsbruck LOC/DME West approach

[dazz 69]

Yes.I did this in the LSH MD-82 when flying multi-crew and did it first time. 180 kts IAS is far too fast. You want to go down with Flap 15 and gear up, as slow as she'll go in that config. You must remember it is a high angle descent (I figure 2.75% gradient) requiring 1500 ft/min at 180 kts GS (approx. 150 kts IAS at 10000 ft). Use gear if necessary for additional drag (speed brakes are prohibited with flaps extended).Note that you ALSO require the Visual Landing chart, separately. See the following. First is the West Procedure LLZ Chart, the second is the visual approach chart.Here is an actual chart (conveniently, for the B737):....Best regards,Robin.

Thanks Robin. Sure enough, 1500 fpm with flaps 15 and gear up works great at 180 IAS (noob mistake on my part that I overlooked the fact that it's at FL120 and GS is of course lower than that). Just like the first time I did the visual part I didn't turn tight enough, I captured the localizer too close to the airfield too so I had to do a steeper descent. I was coming from the south and turned right at KTI resulting in a late LLZ interception@ Michael, I think he means "visual on the runway" because it's already behind you at ABSAM so you reach the MAP without RW visual coming from the West. I suppose it's up to the pilot to decide if visibility is good enough to start the visual procedure

[3-2-1-Now 126]

180 IAS (noob mistake on my part that I overlooked the fact that it's at FL120 and GS is of course lower than that).

???Unless you had a strong headwind, GS would be HIGHER than IAS. It is ground speed that counts.Best regards,Robin.

[dazz 69]

???Unless you had a strong headwind, GS would be HIGHER than IAS. It is ground speed that counts.Best regards,Robin.

Duh! did I happen to mention the noob mistakes I keep making? :( In that case I'm not sure how you managed to go down at 1500 fpm / 150 IAS with flaps 15 and gear up in the maddog Robin, I'll try again later but 180 IAS is what I saw yesterday

[Flamin_Squirrel 71]

I suggest consulting dictionary what 'visual' means.But on another subject the chart above is really very poorly done. The real pilots have a lot better chart for this approach.

Don't be a patronising arse. To be visual has a specific meaning for an approach chart which cannot apply in this case, so answer the question or keep quiet any let someone who actually knows the answer to respond.

[3-2-1-Now 126]

In that case I'm not sure how you managed to go down at 1500 fpm / 150 IAS with flaps 15 and gear up in the maddog Robin

I brought the speed back and took flap as I went. :) 150 kts can be done at 10000 ft (or even FL130 at the start of the procedure). It seems slow, sure, but it can be done! Remember that at 13000 ft at 150 kts IAS the ground speed is ~189 kts (assuming zero wind!!!).To calculate the correct vertical rate:Required vertical rate = (Ground speed in kts / 60) * feet per nautical mileSo at Innsbruck, using your 180 kts IAS for the example:(226.8 / 60) * 5003.78 * 500 = 1890 ft/minI'd extend slats only and pull the speed brake.Best regards,Robin.

[dazz 69]

I brought the speed back and took flap as I went. :) 150 kts can be done at 10000 ft (or even FL130 at the start of the procedure). It seems slow, sure, but it can be done! Remember that at 13000 ft at 150 kts IAS the ground speed is ~189 kts (assuming zero wind!!!).To calculate the correct vertical rate:Required vertical rate = (Ground speed in kts / 60) * feet per nautical mileSo at Innsbruck, using your 180 kts IAS for the example:(226.8 / 60) * 5003.78 * 500 = 1890 ft/minI'd extend slats only and pull the speed brake.Best regards,Robin.

Thanks for that Robin I'll try slats + speedbrakes

[3-2-1-Now 126]

Don't forget that if you need to, drop the gear, too, as it is permissible to use it to decelerate.Best regards,Robin.

[asdf987 0]

Normally you need visual reference with the runway environment (lights, etc.) to be 'visual' during a circle-to-land manoeuvre.However, since there is a published visual manoeuvring track (on a separate chart), you only need to have sufficient visual references to navigate by ground (or water) features.CheersNick Jones

[clkuehn 0]

Please correct me, if I am wrong, but the real world chart of the WEST approach retrieved from EAD seem to me to only refer to RWY 26 not 08.In FSX it was challenging but not a big problem to even bring in the PMDG MD11 or J41 (though the latter is a hell to slow down) doing the visual turn and approach to final at about -900 fpm.I am, however, not an expert so maybe the same procedure would be used for 08. But I believe that-s what the EAST approach is meant for. I am not sure, which approaches the vids show.Thus I guess your sim chart is wrong in this respect; but again, please correct me if I'm wrong.Regarding missed approach from short final, you are - as has been mentioned before - in Visual and thus on your own. Would be natural to follow the visual T/O procedure and head for RTT as soon as possible I guess.Cheers,Clemens Kuehn

[FirstOfficera320 1]

Questions for the pilots and experienced simmers please.Been practicing approaches with the maddog to Innsbruck and found the LOC/DME West one to have a very steep descent starting at D20.4 OEJ. I need to go down at about 1600 - 1800 fpm to be at 5000ft at ABSAM NDB and minimum speed with full 40 degrees flaps and gear down is 180 knots throughout the final descent in the localizer (OEJ R-067). Does that look about right or is there some flight dynamics limitation of FSX making it necessary to go down on full flaps and gear down? Is it ok to start the right turn at ABSAM, not right over it but a bit to the left, to have some more room to make the turn, or does the visual part need to start exactly at ABSAM?What happens if I can barely see the runway before RUM at 5000ft but then after the turn the visibility is not good enough to see the runway below that? I mean I saw the RW before DA, but I still need to turn around and see it from further away and lower. What would be the right thing to do to decide when to land and when to go around? Going around in poor visibility there is pretty scary LOL(picture removed)Thanks in advanced

Hi Dazz,I just flew it in the MD11. just raw data approach and handflying after AB NDB. It is indeed a steep approach. What you need to do is be at Vapp +15 at ABSAM NDB. because you only got 0.9nm for turning. What I did was starting to slow before the decent. For NPA approaches I've always been taught to be in landing config before the decent. This way you only have to deal with the approach and not also speed and config changes. (you can add the final stage of flap after the decent point).Basically I started to slow to 170kts before KTI NDB adding slats first then flap 15. Then at OEJ 20.7 I stated my decent from 11500 using FPA with -4,7degrees put in. Roll mode in LOC. Then you just check the altitudes on the way down to 5000feet where you'll level off. I put the gear down at about 9000feet and then flap 28. When at AB NDB you turn all the way around the 254degrees and begin a shallow decent to 3700feet. when abeam INN turn right by 10degrees. Now comes the hardest part. When at OEJ 14,1nm you turn right and it's a really tight turn. At the same time begin a 3 degree decent. (I used 30degrees of bank at 155kts and still overshot a little.)Have fun. it can be done!Regards,

[3-2-1-Now 126]

Hi,

It can be done!

Indeed it can. Speed management is critical.

Thus I guess your sim chart is wrong in this respect; but again, please correct me if I'm wrong.

I have RW charts, and the approach is close to the same as the sim version, and it is for BOTH runways. After the turn, the rest of the approach is visual. The approach has an initial instrument descent to get you down safely between the mountains.Best regards,Robin.