Should MS Flight have 2D cockpits?

[january 19]

HelloHave you even sat down and used a good headtracking system on a modern PC system ?Like it or not the 2D panel is fast becoming a thing of the past and once you have become accustomed to the freedom of view that headtracking gives in a good VC you would realise why.A fixed 150 degree view without moving your head is not realistic at all, try driving your car without turning your head.

Actually, normal human vision (which you require for a pilot's licence) spans a Field of View of approx 180º without moving your head. Between 150-180º the eye/brain sees mostly shadow or motion with little detail. So triple integrated views in simming comes very close to real world vision.(Triple views: 3 x 45º + two 5.5º bezel width corrections= 146º) Most jurisdictions will deny you a driver's licence if you don't have a 135º visual FOV without head movement. I doubt that they would accept TrackIR as a substitute. Would you attempt to drive your car if there were no windows- only a single LCD in front of the driver, and a minicam on the roof? )No wonder IMAX uses triple images!AR

[xXArch_AngelXx 0]

Actually, normal human vision (which you require for a pilot's licence) spans a Field of View of approx 180º without moving your head. Between 150-180º the eye/brain sees mostly shadow or motion with little detail. So triple integrated views in simming comes very close to real world vision.(Triple views: 3 x 45º + two 5.5º bezel width corrections= 146º) Most jurisdictions will deny you a driver's licence if you don't have a 135º visual FOV without head movement. I doubt that they would accept TrackIR as a substitute. Would you attempt to drive your car if there were no windows- only a single LCD in front of the driver, and a minicam on the roof? )No wonder IMAX uses triple images!AR

Why not just get a curved, 3D ready screen and use Track IR on that? You might as well break the bank if you want the best immersion ever (paired with 7.1 surround sound speaker system, lots of add-on scenery, that would be so amazing!). That is much better than 3 screens that I believe downgrade the experience. I love my VC's! Jamie ♥

[Glynn 405]

Actually, normal human vision (which you require for a pilot's licence) spans a Field of View of approx 180º without moving your head. Between 150-180º the eye/brain sees mostly shadow or motion with little detail. So triple integrated views in simming comes very close to real world vision.(Triple views: 3 x 45º + two 5.5º bezel width corrections= 146º) Most jurisdictions will deny you a driver's licence if you don't have a 135º visual FOV without head movement. I doubt that they would accept TrackIR as a substitute. Would you attempt to drive your car if there were no windows- only a single LCD in front of the driver, and a minicam on the roof? )No wonder IMAX uses triple images!AR

HelloBut would you be granted a pilots licence if you were physically unable to move your head.Would you drive your car without moving your head ? I hope not(watch out for Alex at intersections guys) :( Head movement is natural, pilot do move their heads, when turning onto base leg the runway will be around 45 degrees behind you and with TrackIr that is just an easy movement.How do you simulate that with your fixed view ?I realise that there is no point in discussing this you, as you only have your setup as a point of reference and are unable to accept any other way.The developers on the other hand seem to be moving away from the 2D view seeing it as a relic of the past.

[january 19]

HelloBut would you be granted a pilots licence if you were physically unable to move your head.Would you drive your car without moving your head ? I hope not(watch out for Alex at intersections guys) :( Head movement is natural, pilot do move their heads, when turning onto base leg the runway will be around 45 degrees behind you and with TrackIr that is just an easy movement.How do you simulate that with your fixed view ?I realise that there is no point in discussing this you, as you only have your setup as a point of reference and are unable to accept any other way.The developers on the other hand seem to be moving away from the 2D view seeing it as a relic of the past.

If you can't move your head, you flunk the physical!A wide field of view is essential for situational awareness. That allows you to move your eyes to better focus on something- while maintaining overall visual awareness. That's how you are aware that there is a car beside you and you should not change lanes- while concentrating on the car ahead that just flashed his brake lights.Here is a screenshot of turning final for Rwy 09 CYYJ. The runway can be seen in the left view- top centre right- to guide the pilot into a smooth turn, while maintaining overall situational awareness. The pilot can see both an overall 146º wide view while at the same time, watching the runway threshold, to guide his turn and descent- without having to pan or zoom out (which damages distance perception).This pic setup is actually about 45" wide- with angled outer mons, it wraps around and spans my entire peripheral vision. Just the same as in a car or airplane. (With two more monitors/2D views, I could turn my head and look sideways out of the plane!) AR

[AWACS 12]

Not to worry as they are not going anywhere.

Are you beta testing this version too?! How do I get in on that gig, lol.

[niyoko 7]

I choose to vote for "other." Yes, a 2D cockpit should be in MS Flight, but for other reason then just those given in the poll. The 2D cockpit also has benefits for home cockpit builders and for those who use multiple monitor setups. I saw many replies posting pictures of their home setups and they all use 2D panels to aid them. In my own usage, I have moved on to only using the VC, and I hope to someday have a 3 monitor setup to have a nice wide angle view in a VC. I don't want to go back to 2D cockpits for own flying.

[ryanbatc 12,820]

I voted other - I use 2D popups, normally FMS or GPS popups, but that's all.

[Guest ShinyJetSyndrome]

If FLIGHT doesn't offer or have the capability for 2D panels, then it could not be used in a certifiable Flight Training Device, where virtual panning & zooming is not permitted.

Who uses MSFS as an FTD outside of Redbird Flight Simulations? As for Redbird, their FSX-based simulators/FTD's have a very poor reputation in the industry. Lack of realism, less-than-functional G1000 simulation (I think they use the default FSX G1000), and absolutely pointless motion simulation (only there to get more student $) are just a few of the complaints I'm hearing.As far as I'm concerned, Frasca has the market cornered for PCATD/FTD fidelity. Microsoft should just stick with PC flight simulation and let LockMart (Prepar3D) figure it out. IMHO, I think being FTD-certifiable is one of the last things the current development team cares about -- nor should they.I say keep the 2D panels because sometimes trying to change radios and manipulate other knobs/switches can be a huge pain in the VC.

[mgh 89]

Microsoft never has had any interest in using flight sim,ulator for PCATD, and I can't see that changing. There's no money in it for Microsoft.

[Katana1000S 0]

You can have so much more detail now in 3D cockpits, hard to see the need for 2D cockpits anymore ... I guess its only the pre FSX crowd that want them? then again X Plane 10 seems to want to keep some of them.

[JSkorna 137]

The target market for every version of FS wants 2D cockpits. Once again you have forgotten you are not the target market, and never will be.

[Guest ShinyJetSyndrome]

The target market for every version of FS wants 2D cockpits. Once again you have forgotten you are not the target market, and never will be.

Yeah I really don't see 2D cockpits going away any time soon.I'm sure the 3D view is nice for TrackIR users (I want one) and people with a legit monitor setup (I want this too), but its kind of clunky with somebody who only has a HAT view switch on their yoke and a single 15" monitor.I'm not an expert on gauges/cockpit design, but as I understand it most 3D virtual cockpits use 2D gauges anyways. So for the 2D cockpit it's a matter of doing some panel.cfg programming and generating base images to display the gauges on.Being able to bring up the overhead panel or throttle quadrant in a separate, easy to read window helps to increase situational awareness. Also try doing some final FMC checks while you're taxiing out to the runway using solely the 3D view. Whoops! While you had your eyes inside the cockpit you taxied into the grass. Time to call a tug!

[xXArch_AngelXx 0]

The target market for every version of FS wants 2D cockpits. Once again you have forgotten you are not the target market, and never will be.

I really hope that wasn't aimed at me.Jamie.

[Attila 2]

The target market for every version of FS wants 2D cockpits. Once again you have forgotten you are not the target market, and never will be.

I don't know, but this sort of statement seems to be at odds with some of the features of FS.Who was the target market when FS got:real-time weatherfailure simulationSDKsjust to name a few things

[JSkorna 137]

I really hope that wasn't aimed at me.Jamie.

Nope, for Katana!Attila,Real-time weather-------> Casual gamerFailures, as lame as they are-------> Casual gamerSDKs---------> 3rd party developersAlso note that the list above are all additions and the topic of this thread is a removal of a feature. The removal list of features from FS version to FS version is very short. When was the last time a feature was actually removed from FS? Would it be that little Red Baron feature?