About Becoming an Airline Pilot

[Guest]

>Actually Chickenhawk there is quite a bit of difference >between flying at a local flying club and going to a >professional flight school. >>1. Newer aircraft/Updated avionics - Haven't seen many >little flying clubs equipping there aircraft with GPS, have >you ;) A private pilot should not know what GPS is until they get their license, imo.>2. Part 141 (inst. standardization, flight checks, >etc..)Some even use a combo. of 141 and 61. If you like rigid, structured instruction then 141 is the right way.>3. Dedicated maintenance facilities (lower down times for >aircraft) You got me here, however a local school will probably have a "fleet" of 172's.>4. Most of the schools have contracts with regional airlines >to make getting interviews a little bit easier. Don't matter. They're not hiring right now.>5. Classes in CRM <---Most likely not in little flying clubs Buy a $20 book to learn about CRM. Find another flying buddy and work on it for free, it isn't rocket science.>6. Pan Am for instance has a full motion CRJ >simulator.....sorry, can't see a little flying club having >one of those. Your going to pay $30g extra so you can have 3 hours in a CRJ simulator? I know a bunch of ER grads who just went into the ACA internship and had the "full motion 777 sim" 3 hours @ ER. They started asking them systems questions about the 777 and the feedback was to not even put it on your resume. Hanging out at a local airport though, you can meet actual pilots from a major who can then "sneak" you into their simulators. I know a couple who got time in the US Airways A-310 here in Charlotte.>7. Graduation from one of these dedicated schools usually >ends with the student having more total hours and ME hours >then these little flying clubs. Completely, positively false. For $25g i got the same hours I would have had spending $60g at Comair (Private to CFI). In fact, you get a lot of free time being at the local airport and meeting people (I've gotten close to 50hrs). I don't know if that can happen at a 141 school.>8. Level of professionalism - Most of these dedicated >schools require little things like uniforms, being at school >on time and not being able to just reschedual whenever you >want, and not to mention constant performance checks. Epulets (sp?) don't fly an airplane. Sometimes this is a turnoff for students. If you take lessons at a 61 school you will have "phase" checks also. Again, is it worth the additional $30g?>9. Flat out dedication - Constant studying and a lot of >flying are required to pass. At a little flying club I can >come in whenever I want (except for ground school).....how >is that going to prepare me for an airline or corporate >career? Going through a 61 school from Private to CFI is pure dedication. You're studying the material yourself and learning (ground school can only go so far). Not all 61 schools are local flying clubs, the one I work at has 15 aircraft and 9 CFI's (note most of the CFI's came from 141 schools - ER, Comair, North American, and PanAm).>10. CFI hiring - Most of these schools hire out their own >student pool so becoming an instructor is a little bit >easier then at some "mom and pop" organization. IE more >positions available. Be prepared for office politics. 141 schools are notorious for "bidding" instructors and back-stabbing (actually it happens at 61 schools also, but I've heard some 141 horror stories). If you spend $20+g at a local flying school they tend to look out for you, and hire their own CFI's and use you for ferry flights, etc.>I'm sorry chickenhawk but I have taken lessons at little >flying clubs and although the instruction was adequate it >just was NOT up to par with some of these other schools. To >say it is the same is just plain ridiculous. If you had done >some research you would see that professional flight >programs like those the likes of a Comair, Pan Am etc.. >offer MANY things that just aren't possible at little local >flying clubs. Not to mention suggesting that somebody get >thier ratings and then purchase a used Multi-engine aircraft >to build hours....uhhhhhhh...how about the price of the >aircraft, price of the fuel, price of the aircraft >insurance, price of maintenance? What about all those >things? The aircraft with these things alone can FAR exceed >any training cost at a professional flight school. You need to learn about the concept of equity (most planes will have a value associated with them and you CAN sell them when you're done). Also, please realize I was merely suggesting a 61 school versus a 141 school not a "mom and pop".>I'm not saying that going to a little flight school at your >local airport is a bad thing, in fact, for many it suits >them perfectly. But if somebody truley dreams of flying >ragional, major, or corporate someday these larger >professional flight schools best prepare the applicant for >these endeavors. Rigorous, regimented, and professional, >just like flying for an airline. Many of these professional >flight schools have one thing in mind, "Our students want >soemday to be professional airline or corporate pilots". >Most of these little flight schools are around because "Joe" >up the street wants to earn his pilots liscense or >Instrument rating and it is the cheapest way possible. You're in fairy land. Many of these professional flight schools have one thing in mind: To make money. The market is so tight now that the airlines could give a rats ##### about a 141/61 school. They want multi-time and in a lot of cases 121/135 experience or turbine time (things you will not get at a 141 or 61 school).>If you were a high school student and had a chance to go to >a little college but also had the chance to go to Harvard >which would you choose? Even though Harvard costs more which >one do you think would better prepare you for "corporate >life"? And what if Harvard came out cheaper because you >didn't have to buy your own classroom? Would you still >choose the little college? Wrong. You have to apply and get into Harvard. The only application question for a 141 school is "Can you pay us our money?" This is witnessed by the 141 schools training all of the 9/11 terrorists.>In the long run the cheapest way is to become an Instructor >and get paid to fly. Not to mention nothing teaches you more >about a subject then having to teach it. 100% Agree. You have to put the time in. Please take the 141 schools up on the free tours and talk to recent graduates. Also, look at local 61 schools and see about what they have to offer. Sometimes it works out to get your Private, Instr, Commerical at a 61 school and then goto a 141 school to get the instructor ratings.One other thing. Before you spend $60g at a 141 school, goto a local airport and take a $49 intro flight in a 172 to see if you even like being in a small airplane.Better yet, take up crack cocaine. It's cheaper and less addicting than flying. ;-)

[Arklight1 140]

LOL crack probably is less expensive!Actually as far as total hours go...at the end of Pan Am a student has almost 370hrs PIC time and almost 170 hrs ME time, that is quite a bit more time then the other flight schools I had gone to offered. And no, that doesn't include any time you get from being an instructor. Go to most other schools and ask them how many ME hours will you have at graduation or how many total hours for that matter.The school is full time for 14 months and having a job is prohibited.ME time being very important, every little bit helps.As far as the CRJ thing goes. The cost is around S11,000 and it is 4 weeks long, not 3 hours. And if you don't have a job within 6 months of elegibility you get a complete refund of the $11,000 ACE (CRJ) course. That sounds like a pretty good deal to me. And as far as applying goes, yes, you do have to apply to Pan AM. I have to have a first Class medical, I had to give them a copy of my High School Transripts, and a breakdown of my work history over the past 5 years. Not to mention when I called them the gentleman with whom I spoke to spent a solid hour explaining to me the programs and what is expected while at the same time asking me about my goals work experience, technical background, etc... The "Harvard thing" was an example not to be taken literally.When regards to finding a job with a regional airline and having contracts with certain airlines does it matter? Yes, it does. Why? Because I'm not going to be applying for a job within the next few months, I'm going to be applying in the middle of 2004. What is the airline job forcast for 2004? Do you know? I sure don't. But when regionals do start hiring I want to be best prepared. And IMO this is the best way. Like I said before, I have taken lessons at a 61 school. Did I not like it? Heck yeah I liked it, it was a blast! But I am looking more towards a career in aviation and although I had a blast at my flight school I wasn't getting the in depth training I need and desire. So I moved on. I have to agree with your comments about the politics as well. I actually had a class in college called, "Corporate Culture, or the lack ther of".I also have to agree with you somewhat about waiting on your instructor ratings till you can find a good 141 school and taking your other ratings at a 61. For many, the $35,000-$60,000 price tag is WAAAYYYY to expensive to contend with for many people, not to mention the time required to attend one of these schools. Many also don't like the regimented "military" style of instruction and prefer to go about it at thier own pace, I however, am one who thrives on discipline and order. My wife thinks i'm silly, but what does she know she was never "squared away" LOL.Hope I make sense, typing never was my "forte". lolShane

[Peter Z KCLE_EDDN 336]

Shane,totally agreed with you. I decided to go with Comair, even though I also took a look at Pan Am. I think they're both good schools and just as you say, we're in it for the future.The instructors I see here in Sanford, FL are still leaving the academy for (usually Cincinnati, OH) a right seat position on a CRJ. After roughly a year of instructing they get their chance to interview with 5 regionals.Going the "local part 61" way, I don't know if that is wise in todays environment. Guys from Pan Am, Comair, Westwind, etc. will most likely be hired first. The programs are tough and I found them still very personalized even though those schools are in it for the money...but aren't we all?It all comes down to our goal and our attitude, yes they do want our money but only if we're succesfull the school will be able to live up to its reputation, so they do care. As far as the cost goes, yep it's anywere between $40,000 and $65,000 but I'm still confident in the airline industry and what the future holds and I believe in my dedication (and you'll need tons of it ;-) ) and education I get here.I'm pretty sure that Pan Am isn't any different and offers excellent equipment and know how to their students.Cheers (with Coke of course, not beer ;-) )Petehttp://members.aol.com/pzsoulman/myhomepage/logo.gifAthlonXP2000,AbitKX7-333(latest4in1),512MB/2700SDRAM,WinXP,DirectX8.1,Geforce3TI200(128MB)(Det.30.82),SBlive(WDM5.1.2601.0)

[Arklight1 140]

Good luck at Comair Peter :)Pan Am and Comair were my top 2 choices when I was searching. According to those I have spoken with Comair and Pan Am are VERY similar in training styles and academics, not to mention how the academics are conveyed. In fact when I called over to Comair I asked them about flying in the western U.S. and the referred me to Pan Am and when I asked Pan Am about East coast flying schools they referred me to Comair and Pan Am in Ft. Lucia, LOL. My main reasons for going with Pan Am are I lived on the west coast my whole life and my wife is finishing her degree in Interior Design at the Academy of Art there.I do know at Pan Am we take trips to Florida so maybe sometime we can go get a ....soda (not beer). ;)Good luck at Comair!!!! Fly safe!!Shane

[Guest]

Very interesting discussion here.Perhaps some of you could take a look at this here: http://www.intercockpit.com (there is also a link to the English version).I just started to deal with the thought of becoming an airline pilot, thus still need to gather much more information about how to become one.With that limited knowledge, their offer sound quite good, it is just very expensive (75.000 Euro).If anyone could have a look and give me a more qualified opinion then my own one, I would greatly appreciate it. :)Regards,Robert

[Arklight1 140]

I'd love to help you out Robert but the site is in German and I can't read it, lol.Is there an English version somewhere?Shane