>Andy>>Sad to say, there is this thing called Netiqutte.>>If you ask the same question in two different forums on the>web then you are likely to get "flamed" for it. "Flaming" is>the equivalent of being abused and is 100 percent>unacceptable. The question is, though, would these same>people have the courage to behave like this if they were in a>room face to face with you and a few other people? I doubt>it. Consider ....>>X invites a few friends round to his house for an evening of>flight simulation. He asks a couple of them a question about>the ABC123 video card. Suddenly, one of them says "You asked>the same question of someone else yesterday - how dare you">then punches him hard in the face, knocking him to the ground>in the process.>>This is what happens in forums. The only difference is that>in a forum you don't have to come physically face to face with>anyone - that would take real courage.>>I hope you get your card question sorted out OK. I have an>NVidia FX5600 which some people on the web have told me is>crap. Just goes to show you how much they really know :-lol>>David Thanks for the creative face to face scenario.I am sorry if I offended anyone , but my intentions were genuine.I was just trying to make the best choice for my $$$ after reading post after post and the various benchmarks this can make the most experienced among us confused.Well I went with my instincts and stayed with the ATI .One question I have is there are an abundance of post regarding ATI issues but relatively few regarding Nvidia FX5900/5950.I either can conclude that the ATI far outnumbers Nvidia or there are just no fs9 issues with the high end Nvidia cards.Thanks

You made the right decision with the ATI. Many problems folks have with them is failing to completely clean ALL remaining nVidia drivers from their system before switching to the ATI (same problem when going from ATI to nVidia). As your ATI card will be on a new install you won't have any problems within this sim. Your system should be very nice. Enjoy.

Although Im not one way or the other at this point, you will never convince me that the 9800pro 256MB is any faster than the 5950. Actually the 5950 is clocked faster, it just does more work than the 9800 when using FSAA. These are, of course, from all of the research I have done over the past month or so. Im still not sure which one is best for me, because I dont just play FS9. I think I am going to buy a 9700pro until the new chips are released. I just cant see paying $500 for a card right now that will be smashed by these new chips that are supposed to double the speed of the 9800 and 5950. Of course my opinion could change in the next few weeks and Ill end up buying something different than I thought I ever would. A used 9700pro just seems like the most power for the buck and wont lose much value in the mean time. Too many cards out on the market now for prices to move very much.Craig

I am really interested in the ATI / NVIDIA debate too. I have always been nvidia, currently on a gf4 ti4200 128meg (on athlon xp2400 platform) which is not too bad, but soon it will be time to consign this card to the Mrs Rottenlungs` computer and get something new for the Rottenlungs flagship.On the whole, as far as I can glean from lurking on various FS forums, the ATI seems to be the leader at the moment. It could be time to defect to the other side.CheersLungs

The 9700Pro is a great bang for buck solution now until R420 etc come along. My card runs everything very well. It could use a bit more horsepower when in dense clouds and high def mesh when you are running 4x AA. Sometimes I prefer 2x AA as I run at 1600 x.Noel

Hi Lungs,At the risk of stirring the debate, I'll offer this.I too use to be a die hard nVidia fan. Bought every six months just as they brought a new iteration out. Then this past spring a freind offered to sell me a brand new 9700 Pro for an obscenely low price. I simply had to give it a go.I was using a 4600 at the time, and I was stunned with the improvements in performance and IQ I saw after installing the 9700 Pro.Here's my take on all this... the ATI cards do not AA Alpha textures. The downside of this is that buildings, bridges, trees, etc. can have a tendency to shimmer. But that's easily resolved with the ATI card's ability to run at higher levels of AA and AF. In essence, tweaking the drivers makes it possible for the card to fool my eyes into seeing nice Alpha textures.And now for the upside... because the ATI cards don't AA Alphas the system doesn't take the hit in clouds like nVidia cards. This is important to me. I can fly through heavy clouds and not see the slide show I saw with the nVidia cards.There are some who will say that ATI's driver support is bad. I've not experineced this. ATI is on a schedule to introduce a new set of drivers every month. So far during the last half of this year they've done well. They missed us FS9 users with the fixes we needed in the 3.8 drivers, but got us squared away with 3.9. The drivers work very well for me.So there you have it. I'm sure the nVidia supporters will soon arrive teling us how they are better than the ATI's. Truth be told it's simply a matter of preference. Both manufacturers offer good products and support. Both manufacturers sell alot of cards. Both manufacturers have their supporters. But until nVidia can show me a marked advantage over ATI I'll be staying with the latter. I couldn't be happier with my 9700 Pro.Cheers,

Cant argue with that. We are now seeing ATI and Nvidia pour money into the hands of developers to make certain features for their respective card. I think this is bad for consumers and might only get worse as we go along. Right now I find it very difficult to decide which card is best for my needs when performance is closely matched. Maybe it really doesnt matter all that much and we all make it out to be much more of an issue than it actually is.Craig

Hi Greg & all,An interesting debate here... I'm close to replacing my trusty old ELSA geforce 3 and it'll be a hard thing to do. Running on drivers from Dec. 2001 it outperforms every newer driver set from nVidia.Anyway, my question is this: if I go ATI (I want best performance in the clouds), how do I remove all nVidia (ELSA) video drivers from my XP Pro system - I'm running an nForce2, so there are lots of files with very similar names in there. Any reliable removal software out there? BTW, Greg, I'm still waiting for that new heatsink & RAM to arrive, would you believe? But no more crashes whatsoever. :)Thanks!Jurehttp://www.reality-xp.com/community/nr/rsc/rxp-higher.jpg

Hey Jure....I have an Nforce2 as well...Abit NF7-S. Love it to pieces. Am using some of my older parts to build a second system, so I am going to try out the A7N8X deluxe to see if its any better. I used Detonator RIP when I had a driver issue a few months back and that program deletes anything it finds regarding Nvidia drivers (including registry entries). It can be found at guru3d.com, but you will need .NET framework (free from MS) to get it working right. Hope this helps.Craig

Hi Craig,thank you!! :) I have Asus A7N8X deluxe Mobo and it's simply great. After a few initial hickups with FS2004 crashing it is now rock solid. Jure

Hi Jure,"BTW, Greg, I'm still waiting for that new heatsink & RAM to arrive, would you believe?"Jeez, how is it traveling... slow boat? :-)Here's how I cleaned my system last spring when I converted over to the ATI card:Remove the old drivers using the Windows Add/Remove function.RebootUse this to do some housekeeping: http://www.driverheaven.net/cleaner/Driver Cleaner does a good job, and is easy to use.To do some more housekeeping, I used this:http://www.majorgeeks.com/download.php?det=460RegCleaner has been around a couple years but it's easy to use and does a pretty good job.Finally, if you're really paraniod, you can delve into the Windows registry in search of old sections referring to your previous card. I did indeed find some this summer after the ATI had been installed and working fine for 3-4 months. Using Driver Cleaner and RegCleaner should do the trick for you, though.These two free applications work well no matter what flavor driver you wish to get rid of. Driver Cleaner will differentiate between your nVidia video and chipset drivers, so it's not easy to make a mistake.BTW, I had a hard drive take a permanent holiday last week, so I had to do a complete reinstall. I went with the nVidia 3.13 chipset drivers for my A7N8X Rev.2 board, and they are working a peach. I replaced my old drive with a WD Raptor, and it loads FS9 practically... RIGHT NOW! :-)Cheers,

Gidday GregThanks for your input - its nice to hear from a "defector' to ATI..The heavy cloud slideshow is currently a "feature" of my system and something I would like to see the back of. On a largely clear day I get 18 - 22 fps on 1600x1200x32 (with all sliders maxxed apart from the AI) which isn`t too bad, however, 7 - 12 fps in the clouds is a little too slow for me.I probably will go for an ATI card next but it won`t be for a couple of months anyway - this Christmas thing is to damned expensive. Bah Humbug!!Thanks againLungs

"...this Christmas thing is to damned expensive."Yep!I agree with Noel's perspective... the 9700 Pro is a good bargain today. Offers alot of bang for the buck.But I'm like you. I'll be waiting to see what's available in 4-6 months. The good thing about doing so is that I'll have owned my 9700 Pro for almost a year, which is twice as long as I owned any nVidia card during the past few years (their short development cycles during that time made a big time ouch on the wallet. Keeping up with the neighbors was expensive!).Cheers,

Yeah Nvidia did seem to bring out a new card very frequently, especially last year. I think my ti4200 is about 9 months old now, though it wasn`t exactly cutting edge when I got it. That you`ve had your card for a year and still sound pretty happy with it is a testament to ATI. CheersLungs

"So those of you that have an issue with my post F___ OFF.Clear enough .....Andy" Pretty rough wording there don't you think? You should be able to ask anything you want to be sure and MJ and other have the same right to respond but there are many youngsters who fequent these forums and such a choice of words is really out of place here IMO. [h4]Best Wishes,Randy J. Smithhttp://www.precisionmanuals.com/images/betaimg.jpg