Ryan (PMDG) Help (FIX) required please Re. attitude on finals

[BraytonCycle 0]

Ryan or anyone from PMDG. Is it possible to advise how to change the attitude from approach all the way down to landing by 2 degrees for all flaps setting from the default one you guys have programmed into the 737NGX. That way some of us real world pilots can use the attitude we feel is right and replicates what we see in the real aircraft while others can continue with the default one without any issues. Brought this up because just had a proper go with the NGX and everything works perfectly except the attitudes on finals are 2 degrees off. I know you were going to look into this from some of the previous post but since this might take time, am sure your programmers could throw out some numbers for me to change on .cfg page or something. Sorry to sound arrogant but those of you who disagree with me saying that the attitude PMDG programmed is incorrect, I am not writing this to be told PMDG got it correct etc etc and that I am wrong. Am over that part and didnt write this to debate over the correct attitudes. Just want an answer from PMDG or anyone who knows how to increase approach attitude settings on the PFD by 2 degrees. Thanks

[Tabs 2,790]

There's no easy way for users to change this - it involves the airfile, cfg file and the autopilot code. One of our tech team members closely monitored the approach attitude last weekend on his 800 flights for us and he is not convinced we're wrong and he said if there's anything wrong it's very slight. His exact quote is "Overall from what I've seen in the simulation it isn't too shallow."I hope you understand we have to go with what a verified member of our team who we are positive is actually flying the real airplane every week is telling us.

[BraytonCycle 0]

Thanks Ryan for your prompt reply. I do understand it would be hard to change and that I cannot be verified as a real pilot. Who came up with the attitudes on the PMDG 737NG for FS9? Was this verified by real pilots from the PMDG team also? Am not trying to be smart or anything like that. Just that it actually matches the aircraft I fly and the figures in the B737 manuals my company provided.

[frank1223 4]

I just want to say I think there is a problem on the touchdown attitude, not the approach attitude which absolutely match up with my real world QAR data from a airline.

[falcon999 24]

Thanks Ryan for your prompt reply. I do understand it would be hard to change and that I cannot be verified as a real pilot. Who came up with the attitudes on the PMDG 737NG for FS9? Was this verified by real pilots from the PMDG team also? Am not trying to be smart or anything like that. Just that it actually matches the aircraft I fly and the figures in the B737 manuals my company provided.

I wouldn't recommend using the FS9 NG as any kind of reference. It was developed a long time ago for FS2002. Comparing the FS9 NG to the NGX is like comparing an automobile from the 50's to a 2012 model. While it's true they both have four wheels...

[Tabs 2,790]

The NGX's pitch/power stuff come from the unreliable airspeed tables, some extra Boeing engineering documentation we were given and tuning based on pilot input during testing...

[BraytonCycle 0]

The NGX's pitch/power stuff come from the unreliable airspeed tables, some extra Boeing engineering documentation we were given and tuning based on pilot input during testing...

Gather your team realises those tables are actually meant Vref 30 + 10 and Vref 40 + 10 and not Vref 30 + 5 attitudes then which therefore explains why the attitudes on the NGX is already lower by 1 degree than the real aircraft. Eg. The table shows: Vref 30 + 10 = pitch of 1 degree. If i add my 5 kts to my Vref, the nose has to pitch down by an extra 1 degree now and thats why i see 0 on my pitch attitude indicator for a flaps 30 approach on your NGX. Normally a flaps 40 will show pitch of 0 degrees on the PFD. My major concern though is the landing attitude. Its way too low and am sure your real world pilots in your team will agree. Take the real world figures from the unrealiable airspeed table, if my pitch att is already 1 degree and Vref + 10, I approach at Vref + 5 and therefore increase my pitch by a degree which equals 2 degrees. Therefore approach attitude is 2 degrees. On touchdown as per the books, I normally increase pitch at 20ft above runway by an additional 2 to 2.5 degrees to decrease RoD and therefore would touchdown at around 4 to 5 degrees in calm conditions. Your team used numbers from the unreliable airspeed table which takes into account a wind addition of 10. So on the NGX we approach with 0 degree attitude, and the aircraft pitches up 2 to 2.5 degrees and touches down at 2.5 degrees. Hope i am making sense here. Now if everything was increased by 2 degrees, your pilots am sure cannot disagree with me unless I am flying a NG that wasnt modified or something. Basically, you used Unrealiable airspeed tables to come up with attitudes which are attitudes for Vref + 10 and not Vref + 5.

[BraytonCycle 0]

I wouldn't recommend using the FS9 NG as any kind of reference. It was developed a long time ago for FS2002. Comparing the FS9 NG to the NGX is like comparing an automobile from the 50's to a 2012 model. While it's true they both have four wheels...

Falcon, hope u understand that the FS9 NG is still an NG regardless on which Flight sim it was built for. The numbers in terms of attitudes etc should be exactly the same for both the FS9NG and the NGX if it was built on actual figures from a real 737NG. Why did the FS9 NG have attitudes similar to the Boeing manual figures pilots are provided and are closer to the attitudes some of us pilots fly? You cant tell me PMDG got the FS9NG totally wrong (and Ifly737x) and this one totally right in terms of attitudes.

[ZachLW 37]

The numbers in terms of attitudes etc should be exactly the same for both the FS9NG and the NGX if it was built on actual figures from a real 737NG.

Please keep in mind there are such things called "compromises". No sim will be exact in every phase of flight. That isn't even directed at the NGX, but rather your uneducated statement. Many "workarounds" were used to get the proper numbers you see.

[BraytonCycle 0]

Please keep in mind there are such things as "compromises". No sim will be exact in every phase of flight. That isn't even directed at the NGX, but rather your uneducated statement.

Yeah Zach, dont think will really waste my time with someone who hasnt flown jets for real. Read my first post again unless you are the type that loves to throw in your 2 cents worth without reading the above posts. PS. what was PMDG trying to compromise on by having both their models out by 2 degrees?? If you had any sense of flying, you would know attitude is everything in flying.

[ZachLW 37]

Yeah Zach, dont think will really waste my time with someone who hasnt flown jets for real. Read my first post again unless you are the type that loves to throw in your 2 cents worth without reading the above posts. PS. what was PMDG trying to compromise on by having both their models out by 2 degrees?? If you had any sense of flying, you would know attitude is everything in flying.

Nice attitude. Good luck getting help with it. By the way, you missed the point. Again. Finally, congratulations on being the only turbojet pilot in the world.

[Guest tonyf38]

Brayton is right, it's 2 degrees off and not enough drag and a little too much lift with flaps extended.

[Buzz313th 0]

No offense to PMDG, but it would be nice to get a 3rd party 738 driver to have a go at the sim and give us his/her oppinion. Ever since I got it on release day, it has always felt too slick and lands too flat at Ref. My BANDAID has been to just pull 8 knots off the VREF and chop the throttle earlier than the fence. JB

[BraytonCycle 0]

Zach..not here to debate with you as I said in my first post so why bother posting unless you like to be popular in which case start your own thread and for your information, you were not trying to help anyway. Already Ryan has said they used the Unreliable airspeed tables for attitudes for the NGX which is already incorrect since its not meant to be used for normal flight at Vref + 5. That Vref+10 is a safety buffer put in to make sure the aircraft will not be too slow on approach. AS CONFIRMED BY RYAN :

The NGX's pitch/power stuff come from the unreliable airspeed tables, some extra Boeing engineering documentation we were given and tuning based on pilot input during testing...

Anyway, bet guys like you will sit in a real 737NG and tell the pilot the landing attitude is wrong since PMDG737NGX lands with 2 to 2.5 degrees and that the book figures Boeing has means nothing at all. Isnt there any real B737NG pilots in this forum??? Hopefully one day someone will wake up and see just because something looks amazing may not always be correct! Maybe ok for virtual pilots to fly with whatever attitude set on NGX but for some of us, no use flying the NGX if its not even going to be close to the real book figures. (yup..i know someone will say "why fly it then"..so dont bother)

[G550flyer 1,011]

Well Tonyf38 has a secret for you guys that want the text book attitude. I did a test and was very impressed. The aircraft now stalls alot closer to stall speed in the landing configuration. You should shoot him a message or search his posts. The pitch matches the text book and videos that I've seen from approach to touch down. The aircraft will float if you flare more than 3 degrees or flare too high. I'm familiar with the unreliable airspeed charts from other aircraft. I've been given pitot and static malfunctions in the sim and had to refer to them during the session. I know they carry a safety pad in the airspeed for obvious reasons.