Lack of vatsim controllers

[Wynthorpe 51]

Subscription based?! it will have to be very very good indeed.

[Gianluca Garella 0]

Flying in Europe only I always had good experience with Vatsim.Germany, Austria, UK and Scandinavia are always the most active and with several airports with APP, TWR, GND and sometimes DEL as well. All of them very professional people.Also in other countries anyway I always had very good experience (Italy, France, Spain, Holland, Poland, Czech Rep.).I agree a lack could have been in summer season due to holidays. As always during colder days online time will increase.

[VPA481 27]

And one point from me is having 2 serious online organizations (VATSIM/IVAO) competing against one another does not help, it just dilutes our small community even more.

Well, true, but having 2 networks gives us the opportunity to go to the other network if one goes mad ... And that's the case, I moved. I don't say that the grass is greener in IVAO, but I personnaly got more fun since I don't deal too much with egos problems there. Not less problems, just different ones. Regarding required skills to be virtual ATC, I don't think that the requirements are so different between VATSIM and IVAO: it's hard for many of us. In IVAO France, Tower Controller exam success is 40% as far as I remember, and that day you get 10 times the traffic you'll ever get on normal day controlling. That's stupid, BUT: hard exams may be the price to pay to have brilliant control. Just imagine, that everyone get the opportunity to control: every pilot will moan about poor skilled ATCs ...I remember one day in VATSIM, I was flying with poor visibility, a controller just sent me against a mountain ... The possiblity to choose between 2 networks is still a good thing. I don't know any perfect organisation.

[fakeflyer737 991]

I used to VATSIM a lot, but there is NEVER controllers on, so what is the point? Then, I decided maybe everyone wanted to fly and not control, so I tried to become a controller. After reading pages and pages of, you must do this, then that, then go here and go there, I was like forget that! It was almost as if I was going to be working for them and not get payed lol. Sorry, this is called a simulator for a reason! The VATSIM staff takes things to far (as for policy) and require to much of people to get started or keep working. Another point was made of having IVAO which makes for more competiton in a VERY limited market. IVAO should merge with VATSIM and lighten up the load for people, give people a reason to want to log on. Honestly I rather use LiveATC.net running in the background to hear traffic and use Radar Contact 4 for my controlling, but for certain one thing is true; I rather have a full controlled ATC flight with RC4 then have one Center Controller talk to me for 2 seconds over his ARTCC. The VATSIM folks have taken things to far, there lack of leadership and beuracracy is mind blowing, yet every once in a while the go on FSBreak and make it sound like its an awesome exerpience with it is not...because of the lack of people using it.

[morganbass 10]

If they really wanted to do something positive, they would make it easier to become a controller. I realize they don't want people that are not there for the right reasons and messing stuff up, however it seems daunting to many people. I would bet that most very experienced virtual pilots, real student pilots, and people with real world time could be controllers. However, and this is from my understanding, it is very hard to be allowed to free control on the network. If it was easier, I would probably apply. Being a student pilot, I have a very real knowledge of air traffic control interactions as well as my virtual airline experience.

When you say easier exactly what do you mean. As a controller in the UK, I will admit that the learning is difficult, the process of progression has its problems but these are mostly a resources issue as all training controllers have a mentor. There is no way that someone can go on twr and just from reading be competant to control. mentors are there to help the student controller reach a satisfactory standard to control. There is nothing worse than receiving control form a controller who clearly does not know what they are doing. If as you say you are a student pilot in th ereal world thena l ittle learning will not be issue for you. That said I do know that the states did have a problem a few years back with certain ctrs insisting that controllers had real world experience before even seeing a radar scope, now that is just plain silly. Oddly enough most atc on VATSIM start off as pilots on the network and then come over to the darkside to see what its like. Thats what happened to me. Wycliffe

[JET 1 0]

Don't really have time to fly online anymore, but when I did, I only flew between "event" airports. There are events going on almost every day and you'll have loads of traffic and guaranteed atc coverage all the way. Good events have a slot booking system where you can select a flight and fly it real time. The best ones even provide you with a route and a briefing package. Couldn't be easier and more realistic. That being said, I found flying between any other airports, especially off hours to be pointless..

[FLEX1978 373]

It all depends on where you fly and how you plan your flights. When it is good nothing compares, I could never go back to offline flying or a computer voice giving me instructions. Most of Europe is covered every evening and the ATC is top notch over here, when I used to fly longhaul it would be from Europe to Boston and the service was great on every trip. Going back to Vatsim not linking up with IVAO, arrghhh it drives me crazy! I doubt they will ever meet in the middle. In the past 6 years or so I have only ever had 2 ATC problems so it does say a lot for the quality of service provided. First one was into Bogota Colombia in a 744F , Approach seemed to want to Vector me like I was in a hand glider causing me to go missed twice, not the kind of thing you want at night in rain, surrounded by huge mountains and low visibilty/fuel after a 14 hour long haul!I Second was a fuel stop in Halifax enroute to LA, on approach the controller insisted he knew how to fly the 744 better then me and kept shouting that I was going to stall, when I landed I had to explain that he was seeing my groundspeed not airspeed and the approach was well within limits..

[Alaaar 34]

It all depends on where you fly and how you plan your flights. When it is good nothing compares, I could never go back to offline flying or a computer voice giving me instructions. Most of Europe is covered every evening and the ATC is top notch over here, when I used to fly longhaul it would be from Europe to Boston and the service was great on every trip. Going back to Vatsim not linking up with IVAO, arrghhh it drives me crazy! I doubt they will ever meet in the middle. In the past 6 years or so I have only ever had 2 ATC problems so it does say a lot for the quality of service provided. First one was into Bogota Colombia in a 744F , Approach seemed to want to Vector me like I was in a hand glider causing me to go missed twice, not the kind of thing you want at night in rain, surrounded by huge mountains and low visibilty/fuel after a 14 hour long haul!I Second was a fuel stop in Halifax enroute to LA, on approach the controller insisted he knew how to fly the 744 better then me and kept shouting that I was going to stall, when I landed I had to explain that he was seeing my groundspeed not airspeed and the approach was well within limits..

Its so funy

[MattDavies 320]

as a long standing member of VATSIM, it's had it's up's, it's had it's down's - now it's mainly down's. It's run by mostly a good group of people, but the few amateurs that are worming their way in to higher positions are completely destroying the network. They will never admit it, but that's amateurs for you! The policies don't help either, but the problem there is that the amateurs that set training around the policies don't quite know what they're doing, hence why you see less and less control (because people find it near impossible to "rank up"). I'm hoping one day they'll realise, get rid of the idiots, bring in people who actually know what they're talking about and start making VATSIM what it used to be - fun and professional.

[FLEX1978 373]

Hehe, Halifax is jinxed for me so I stay well clear now ;) the only time I have crashed online was due to stopping over one of those refueling ramps without knowing, my already Heavy aircraft had been refueled to the Max, I took of with derate thrust and reached 50ft with the stick shaker going crazy! I disconected from Vatsim pretty quick :)

[MarkW 1,491]

I am a C1 controller at Toronto. It took me a full year to get my C1 and be able to control Center. This included learning around 10 modules and passing written tests as well as many online sweatbox simulation sessions. I was very lucky in that I had a real world controller training me and that experience was invaluable....little things like always have your scope in a situation that if for some reason the power failed or the radar stopped working no aircraft would be in a position to hit each other....things you may not get from someone who is not real world. For me the experience was great and the guys were really nice to work with, supportive, not hard a$$es, but still they wanted competence. I fly exclusively on Vatsim and don't have an issue although at times the coverage is poor but then I never really worry about that. The biggest problem with the network in my opinion is the crappy pilot clients that are hard to install, don't show the proper liveryeis, etc. and are quirky, not to mention not updated all the time. I personally don't like the idea of controllers on the network who are not trained properly on the RW procedures....as a pilot do you really want that? Not to say it should be so hard that nobody can pass, I mean lets get real we don't have traffic that gets anywhere even close to the slowest times in real world. Mark.

[DaveCT2003 1,820]

Here's an idea, and maybe worth a TRY. Not saying it would work. If a large enough group sounded off, maybe there would be some changes on VATSIM. Also, VATSIM needs to be promoted a whole more as we've found a lot of users have never heard of it (hard to believe, but it's true). The more pilots who fly on the network, the more who will become interested in becoming controllers, etc. Fix the VATSIM controller training, and, well, it's a start. But we have to positively promote it. Not saying that feedback isn't warranted, or that this topic wasn't a great idea - it was! (Thanks for the original post!). GROUP BASED, CONSTRUCTIVE FEEDBACK.We have a small group (intentionally small, but it's growing and we're still debating whether that's a good idea or not). At times we've provided constructive feedback to VATSIM managers and controllers, and believe it or not we have seen improvements. Not saying it was because of our feedback or suggestions, but it couldn't have hurt. Also, the feedback was well thought out as we wait at least a day before writing and sending it (that way the emotions are subdued). We love to fly online in a realistic environment (you'll hear us ask to be vectored for weather at times), so our only goal with our feedback is to help make things better. HELPING NEW VATSIM PILOTSLet's face it, a lot of guys avoid VATSIM because they're (understandably) a bit overwhelmed and intimidated by it all, and not everyone can read, understand and apply something as different as realistic flight routes, ATC communications, traffic patterns, and aircraft procedures. To do it all at once, well that's just overwhelming for someone who's never stepped into a real cockpit. Add to that a new pilot feeling embarrassed for not knowing what they're doing, and it can all seem a bit unfriendly on top of being intimidating. Of course most VATSIM controllers understand this, and if the new pilot starts out in an area that it's busy then most controllers will take the time to help them. But there is another way. Our group has worked with quite a few pilots new to VATSIM, and we've found that new pilots become comfortable enough on the network after just a few flights. It really helps to have other guys you "know" to help you install, setup, and learn the FSINN software (we do this in about 15 minutes so the new pilot doesn't have any frustrating issues), and then help them to learn how to get or develop a flightplan and understand the various stages of flight under ATC control. I don't want to mislead you, we help new VATSIM pilots understand these things, but we also point them to the written material. It's just that we've found that explaining things to them (we use Desktop Presentation Software) first helps them to better understand the written material. They continue to learn as they make more flights with the group, and before you know it they're helping someone else. We've found those who are mentored stick around because a whole new world is opened up to them. Add multi-crew (shared cockpit) on VATSIM, and it can be an immersive and incredible experience. While we always like to have more ATC coverage, we don't sweat it as we realize the controllers are volunteers and have real jobs, and we fly between airports that are manned up and take advantage of VATSIM and virtual airline events. VATSPY helps us to locate the areas where there are controllers and events, as well as the event listings themselves. ONLINE PILOTS UNION?Not another Virtual Airline, but rather a sincere and well meaning group of online pilots dedicated to helping our networks be the most realistic as they can be. Maybe that type of group could help turn VATSIM around, maybe even bring about a merger with VATSIM, IVAO, and West Coast ATC. I do know that dividing the online community further isn't good for anyone, and I can't image ever flying offline again, not ever. 1. Positively promote online flying (VATSIM/IVAO).2. Mentor new pilots, but have them read a few pages about flying on the network and talking with ATC.3. Have them listen to a flight with active controllers at least once. We pipe through the ATC from out flights to a separate Team Speak room.4. Provide group based constructive feedback to airport managers and VATSIM Board of Governors. After we establish ourselves as sincere, it could help. We're already doing this as a group, but a much larger group would be VERY helpful. By the way, our group insists on a certain level of realism, as this is a Hobby and Simulator to us. We have several active and retired commercial pilots in the group and quite a number of private pilots, and the help they provide to us is terrific. Doesn't mean we don't have fun, and the chatter on our TeamSpeak3 server during flights (never when there is hopping ATC communications) varies from funny, to serious, to technical help. All in all, it's a lot of fun, but at heart we're all serious sim-heads. DIFFERENT EXPECTATIONSI've run an online flight based group for over 5 years, so I know and respect that different people want different things out of a flight simulator experience. Some want to fly online with a group simply to be part of something or have someone else to talk to, but they don't care about realism. They show up on VATSIM and IVAO because there are other people there. I understand and respect that, I honestly do. Our group mixes that with a desire to achieve the most realistic experience possible, both in the cockpit and on the network. I'm not suggesting that everyone should want or like what we do, but VATSIM and IVAO both clearly state that the networks are realism based. There are plenty of other online areas for guys who want to fly with someone else but leave the realism and seriousness out of it. Keep in mind that VATSIM and IVAO are private networks that allow the public in, not the other way around. If someone isn't interested in seriousness and realism, then that's respectable, it's just that VATSIM/IVAO isn't the right venue for what they're looking for. I say this because I know and respect that some don't care about realism, think of this as purely a game rather than a simulator. The GAMSPY network isn't my thing, because it lacks the seriousness and realism that I'm after. But both the public and private areas can provide someone with a less serious place to fly with other people. There are also several FSHost servers up (Google is your friend here). Foregive me, that's a long winded two cents. It's just a subject I'm sensitive to, and want to help make things better. Anyway, just a few ideas. Be well. Dave

[davidz 26]

I was very lucky in that I had a real world controller training me and that experience was invaluable....little things like always have your scope in a situation that if for some reason the power failed or the radar stopped working no aircraft would be in a position to hit each other....things you may not get from someone who is not real world.

This is actually suppose to be an ATC competency according to the VATSIM Global Ratings Policy... problem is, hardly any training departments know what "separation assurance" is! "6: Pre-emptively applies separation assurance to avoid rather than resolve conflicts"VATSIM GRP September 2011, Appendix A, IV, D

[scandinavian13 5,192]

There is nothing worse than receiving control form a controller who clearly does not know what they are doing.

I can't stand when people come to me and say things are too hard on the controller side. To control requires effort. It's not something you can just do. There's no automation that will do anything for you as a controller, unlike the pilot side. To me, those who show up saying it's too hard simply can't bother to do any work to learn how to properly control. It's not incredibly hard, though certain people will be better at it than others. I'm perfectly fine with the amount of controllers that are out there right now. To be honest, keeping the controllers who don't want to put in the effort out helps to keep the good controllers around. To take that further, cutting the number of bad pilots (and by 'bad', I mean those who refuse to learn, or make an effort to fly properly) would likely increase the number of controllers who control more often (I will log off earlier than planned if I've been taxed with terrible pilots all night), and pilots who will fly more often.

as a long standing member of VATSIM, it's had it's up's, it's had it's down's - now it's mainly down's. It's run by mostly a good group of people, but the few amateurs that are worming their way in to higher positions are completely destroying the network. They will never admit it, but that's amateurs for you!

Anyone see parallels to the airlines here? Was that too far?

[MarkW 1,491]

This is actually suppose to be an ATC competency according to the VATSIM Global Ratings Policy... problem is, hardly any training departments know what "separation assurance" is! "6: Pre-emptively applies separation assurance to avoid rather than resolve conflicts"VATSIM GRP September 2011, Appendix A, IV, D

True, but there are some subtleties that are not always obvious that could lead to a loss of separation under some very specific situations (as rare as they may be) and that is what I was referring to. Mark.