Our Tax $ At Work

[John_Cillis 2,406]

"although you're right on this,try to name a country that spends more money on weapons for other countries e.g. IsraelIMHO,solving problems is not equal to giving weapons?"I feel this argument is flawed. One of the biggest "justifications" the terrorists have used is this quote "our people are being bombed by the Zionists with American weapons."American weapons? Those weapons are heavily invested in by shareholders all over the planet. I'd almost bet that some rich terrorist zealots are shareholders in some of these weapons companies. And Egypt, Jordan, Saudi Arabia, Pakistan, even Iran and Iraq--all have bought or use "American" weapons. And to be more blunt, Israel's citizens have long been the victims of "Palestinian weapons"--namely children with bombs strapped on their bodies. As a U.S. citizen, I don't feel compelled to use that as an argument for killing all Palestinian children. If one were to argue that Israel kills children too, I'd say on the scale of things, I see far more murder of innocents by the Palestinian side, and its murder that's more deliberate.I was recently sent unsolicited pictures by an ex-Arab friend, showing maimed (and dead) Palestinian children. I responded by sending pictures of concentration camps (many Arab nations were sypathetic to the ######'s in WW-II), of the twin towers, of the hole in the ground where an airplane also carrying children crashed in PA. Had no idea why he sent them to me, other than I had mentioned that I was strongly against the Israeli occupation. I feel he put 2+2 together, and assumed I was sympathetic to the cause. What stupid fools, these terrorists, if they think becoming the animals they pretend others to be helps their cause. These arguments always come up in post 9/11 discussions--a linking of America the "self-appointed" as some type of reason for the events of 9/11. Or America's links to Israel. That just puts sugar into the mouths of the terrorists, as far as I'm concerned. But I guarantee you, if I'm going to look for moral high ground, it won't be in the words of the Imams, Bin Laden's, or bully dictators. And considering the anti-semitism I still see in my European travels, I won't find it there. No matter what our transgressions, I sleep better knowing that I'm under the U.S. flag, which is one that means something--the fact that we can sit and discuss our imperfections, our mistakes, and even argue over and possibly prevent a war in Iraq. We are far from perfect as a country--there is still racism, there is still too much use of the "big stick" before diplomacy. But there is such an anti-U.S. arrogance in the world, I'd almost call it racism as well. Much of it is as ignorant as our understanding of other cultures, if not more so. And I share a unique perspective on that, having family and having lived both in Europe and Latin America. Want to know how to respond? Start listing the good things that are done by American citizens. One Aviation related--we have a group of doctors here in the southwest which flies at their own expense into the rural regions of Mexico, to provide free treatment there. It's no knock on the Mexican medical system....I've been treated by it and there are excellent facilities and doctors. But here in the Southwest, some of our major centers are much closer to the rural, remote regions in Mexico.I listed my reasons why I was concerned over the picture shown. But at the same time, I bristle when I see the post 9/11 arguments against the U.S. appearing over and over again. I suggest people study history in its entirety, rather than the bits and pieces needed to justify a cause or a racist notion.

[Guest Paul_W]

So far as I can tell (without having read every word of every message in this thread), no one has attached a specific context to that photo to explain the need for treating the detainees in that way. There had been a major revolt at a prison in northern Afghanistan early in the conflict there; it went on for several days as I recall, and a CIA man was killed, and hundreds of the inmates who revolted ended up dead too. Apparently they wouldn't give up but were determined to fight it out with US and British forces to the bitter and bloody end. So the US knows it is detailing with a determined and fanatical element, and you'll have to excuse them for ensuring that they didn't somehow break loose of their bonds and perpetrate more fanaticism while in transit. Given half a chance and with nothing to lose reasonable people can reasonably assume some or all of the detainees would do anything they could to damage or bring down the plane and its crew. But there was no repetition of the disaster in northern Afghanistan, so the precautions that were adopted afterwards were effective...and necessary.

[John_Cillis 2,406]

I'm not accusing you of being a ######, but we have to be careful when we start putting things in "context", as a really bad dude used the same rationale as justification for the atrocities against the Jews in WW-II, which many Arabs supported. And respect the forum members enough to know that all of us are aware of what happened on 9/11 and in Afghanistan.My only worry when I see something like the above is the fact that it is known that some innocent were hauled off to Cuba along with the guilty. Putting a hood over someone's head, on a rocking and pitching aircraft, is pure hell. Losing all reference to the horizon, it causes severe nausea, anxiety, panic. Chain the guilty up, string 'em up for all I care. But we should never risk the innocent by using "context" as justification for punishment of a group.

[Guest]

John,I didn't expect such a well-reasoned response from an american,but only tell me,in which European countries do you think there is still anti-semitism???the truth is (extreme)-right political parties are gaining many voters because there are so many immgigrants in Europe (especially U.K,France and Benelux).I'd agree with you if you said there is starting to grow (and there actually is) some anti-islam feeling,but anti-semitism not I believe

[John_Cillis 2,406]

I've run into it in England, Germany, Austria, and Northern Italy. I'm not talking about right wing political parties, but the average person. One quote I heard in Bologna--"Those Jews are ruining everything for us. I wish they get the hell out or disappear". That came from a client, and is a pretty typical comment. It came up in the context of a conversation where I mentioned how successful a previous German client was, that was part of the same franchise.Anti-Semitism thrives in Europe in what I call the "shadow" conversations--the type of conversations where someone trusts you to the point of saying anything. And I agree about the anti-immigrant feelings.... I've seen that evolve in the 25 years I've been traveling to, living, and doing business in Europe.Surprisingly, I've found in my U.S. East Coast travel a fair number of anti-Semitic comments, especially among the Italian community of which I am part of. It's one of the reasons I have little to do with my family on the East Coast. Having been raised in the Napa Valley, it was a melting pot of Europeans, Asians, and people from Latin America. We also had a large Muslim community attending my college, back in the late 70's, with an especially high number of students from UAE. A very close friend was son of UAE's defense minister, and we regarded him jealously as he'd say "I'm flying home for the week" as if he were saying, "I'm going to the market." Sad to say we lost touch, but he was a very good friend and helped me a lot on my thesis research.I guess you could say I grew up in an atomosphere where you had to learn tolerance to make friends, as no cultural group was big enough to be called a majority. And I wouldn't have had it any other way.-John

[gosta 0]

Hi John,too true, and as the saying goes 'A society's level of civilisation can be measured by the way it treats its most undesirables'.Therefore, prisoners should not be transported this way and given the most humane treatment possible - if only to show that the degree of civilisation in the US is well beyond that of the terrorists, i.e. whatever atrocities they may have committed, they will still be treated to a fair trial according to the minimum standars prescribed by international (not US) law. Anything else, like the current legislation regarding 'enemy combattants' (a status not recognised by international law), or the pending 'Homeland Security' laws is just playing into their hands. Cheers,Gosta.

[Splash_One 0]

Compare how in they past our POW were transported....(dragged through streets, beaten, whipped, shredded apart, shot, ##### pots dumped on them, had to eat their bodily functions to clean it up, tortured and anything else aquinted with pure hate and suffering..) And thats just the beginning. The above picture is more than friendly when compared what they do to past POWs. I just put it that way, but then again, since losing a loved one in 9/11 that my just be my own perspective...

[Guest Lizardo]

I think it also bears remembering that this bunch of people were also very combative, tried to bite and kick their guards while in flight, said they would glady cause the aircraft to crash however they could etc. #2, it's not much different than how our troops have flown when they had to. #3 it was ok by me if they were put in the hold an old Liberty ship and 3kts/hr all the way here via Cape of Good Hope.

[Guest]

What you chaps are seeing are the fortunate ones. Had they been kept by the Northern Alliance their future would be glum indeed I also notice that their captors aren

[Guest Daniel Pimentel]

Hey:Remember many of these people were brought up this way, they think their cause is right. THe majority are minions, who most likely were brainwashed since childhood. I think the treatment to them is awful,even for POW's. Because just cuz a person fights against you it doesn't mean you should treat them like animals if captured.Sincerely,Daniel PimentelAA RULES!!! :)Download my semi-photoreal AA 757!:http://ftp.avsim.com/library/sendfile.php?DownloadID=16882Aerolineas Argentinas A330-200 NOW AVAILABLE!!http://www.thevivcorp.com/~fyarepaints/MyR.../posky332ar.zipChrome AA 767 NOW AVAILABLE!!http://www.thevivcorp.com/~fyarepaints/MyR...osky767aaV1.zipDominicana de Aviacion 727-53C NOW AVAILABLE!!http://www.thevivcorp.com/~fyarepaints/MyRepaints/dom722.zip______________________________"Whenever you find yourself in the side of the majority it's time to pause and reflect" - Mark Twain

[John_Cillis 2,406]

"just cuz a person fights against you it doesn't mean you should treat them like animals if captured."For those truly guilty, I feel the above picture shows a great deal of restraint. I wouldn't give them the satisfaction of saying they have a "cause." IMHO, many of them simply kill because it gives them pleasure. They kill because they're told it's their ticket to heaven. They simply kill for gain, doesn't matter whether the enemy is American, Russian, or Chinese. They don't fight "against" anyone--they fight for themselves.My ONLY issue with the above picture is the fact that innocents were dragged to Cuba this way (and subsequently shipped back). Had the hoods been left off, I wouldn't have had any quibble. The hoods just seem like a type of revenge, before proof of guilt. We have to learn as a country that revenge is the way of our enemy, and shouldn't be our new way of dealing with terrorism. In WW-II, 50 officers were murdered by the Gestapo after breaking out of Stalag Luft-III. Most know this as the story, the "Great Escape". What many do not know is how the murderers were caught after the war. They weren't caught by rounding up all the Germans who were combatants. Many of the Gestapo were civilians, and just melted into German society after the War. The British had a rallying cry--they wanted to serve "exemplary justice." Rather than treating the murderers as soldiers, they investigated "the 50"'s murder as a crime. Rather than shoving a big stick at the Germans, the way we are doing in the Muslim countries, they methodically investigated the incident with a small amount of resources, sometimes risking their lives, but always respecting the rights of the accused. And some of the accused were as combative and disruptive as the worst of the Afghan prisoners. But all the accused were given humane treatment. Some of the Gestapo caught were so confused by their humane treatment, they confessed outright. They expected to be hung on hooks--a favorite form of torture and execution for the Gestapo. They thought the treatment was a deception.The word "War" should never have been applied by George Bush, but the word "Crime" doesn't win elections, and doesn't buy "smart" bombs. Plus, the word "War" gets some insurance companies off the hook. Yet if we ever invest in shrewd investigators as much as our weaponry, we may still yet sift out the guilty from the innocent. We need our own "exemplary justice."

[gosta 0]

>>The word "War" should never have been applied by George Bush, but the word "Crime" doesn't win elections, and doesn't buy "smart" bombs. Plus, the word "War" gets some insurance companies off the hook. Yet if we ever invest in shrewd investigators as much as our weaponry, we may still yet sift out the guilty from the innocent. We need our own "exemplary justice." <

[BobP 56]

So..... How would you transport them?Let's assume that they are committed to killing YOU. And (your not going to believe this) they believe if they kill themselves (along with you) that special rewards await them after death. So how the hell would you transport them in a airplane were anything could be used to damage a system (cut a cable, pop a door, pee on a fuse)? How?Just assume your the GI guarding these fanatical murderers. How would you do it? Better yet, assume the GI is your son, or brother or husband. How would you ensure these fanatics cannot possibly damage the plane or cause harm to them. How?I'll tell you how. You make them uncomfortable so they are thinking about THAT and NOT how to get free and kill YOU. You immoblize and blindfold them. I my opinion money well spent.BobP:)

[Guest]

Thank you BobP very well put. The danger of flying those fanatics is very real and I am sure that the methods used are well thought out.CopulaterCookie

[Guest]

I really don't like to get involved in threads like this because there are people from different cultures with different opinions as to what might be derived from photos such as this... But I can speak with some experince as I have a background in US Military Intelligence and worked around and sometimes with U.S. held POW's... What you see are people being transported in a manner for the safety of everyone involved and that incudes the POW's themselves... U.S. held POW's are treated with respect, are fed well and live in good conditions... Sometimes better than thier captors live in the field and at times better than the POW's lived at home... Effort is made to see that thier needs such as religious and others are met.... True, it is not Club Med but it is as good or better than most countries in the world... They are not tortured or harmed unless they try to harm someone else... I have seen first hand how we treat our POW's and I speak the truth and will not waiver from it... There is nothing inhumane or anything to cause injury to the men in the photo.... They are just being transported...Ron Mashburn