AIG website closed over copyright dispute

[scott967 62]

Looks like for now Alpha India Group have taken their site down, and may also pull all their files from AVSIM. It seems like a dispute over copyright and compilation of works or derivative works for which AIG-affiliated authors claim rights and publish under AIG and another group dba ### AI Traffic which is also publishing. Don't know who is in the right, though certainly AIG have earned some respect by virtue of their work and support via their site. Unfortunately it appears that "netizens" might be attempting to take sides and act in ways that could be damaging to one or the other party. Hard to see how any good can come from this. scott s..

[atco 161]

Very simply, AIG were notified by another party that this ### AI traffic package contained copyrighted works, basically models, repaints and flightplans made by AIG as well as AI Aardvark, Globusworld, Fruit Stand etc and was being distributed by ### AI as if it was their own work.This is nothing more than similar packs like Adobe and SKAI etc that were shunned by the public.After AIG asked for the package to be removed and for AIG works to be taken from it the owner of ### AI threatened the members of AIG and decided he wanted to get lawyers involved, including claiming such nonsense as AIG infringed copyright of airlines by using their timetables without permission.After close to 10 days of trying to deal with this individual with no progress at all AIG simply decided under continuous threat of legal action from ### AI to close down. If this individual continues to proceed in this way then AIG will simply close for good, and the files created by its team members will be shared solely within the team and the community will lose it all. Why the heck should a freeware group be harassed by legal threats?

[Deltalpha 3]

I really hope AIG can resolve this. Such a shame that this has happened to our hobby.

[WarpD 824]

Unless this 'ICE' individual is a lawyer already in employ by the airlines... the individual can't possibly initiate any legal action against AIG on behalf of any of the airlines. No one can do that unless the already represent the airline(s). Also, the individual is in Mexico which means their lawyer has no legal standing within the U.S. itself. I could go on and on... but bottom line is... the individual is not standing on any firm legal ground whatsoever. AIG should simply do the following: 1 - File a DCMA complaint with register.com. They maintain the domain registration for 'ICE'.2 - File a DCMA complaint with weebly.com. They maintain/provide the web servers for 'ICE'. Those two alone should be sufficient to remove 'iCE' from any further discussion.

[mgh 89]

My understanding of the facts is that: 1 - AIG members produce add-ons which are distributed as freeware through sites such as AVSIM and FlightSim 2 - ###ai are taking these add-ons and distributing them, also as freeware, through its own site. (If I'm wrong and there is anything further, I'm sure someone one will put me right!) What ###ai is doing is reprehensible but, in reality there's not much than can be done about it - other than to ignore it. AIG is an informal group (an "unincorporated association" in legal jargon) and has no separate legal personality and so can't be sued. Ths means it can't own copyrights, which remain vested in the individual members who actually created the work. This would complicate giving a valid notifation under the DMCA, especially by some one outside the USA without an agent in in USA.

[Chock 17,769]

If you really wanted to go for it, you do own the intellectual copyright to what you have created (apart from the airline logos and schemes), although you might have a tedious time proving that. But it can be done; web log timestamps and the like will prove the existence of things you have created and where they originated from to some degree, so that's an option. In any case, I don't really know why you are shutting down, because someone attempting to take legal action against you when you are complaining about them stealing your work and passing it off as their own would almost certainly get laughed out of any lawyer's office, and the chances of anything like that ever making it to court are about as likely as seeing Satan driving to work on a snowplough. There is at least some grounds for claiming that you do not own the copyright of liveries which have logos that are not your property, but of course that isn't going to make them his. Nevertheless, most airlines simply view the use of their liveries on flight sim aeroplanes as an extra bit of free promotion of their corporate identity to be honest (with one or two exceptions), so it's largely a moot point anyway. This very notion was in fact demonstrated in a famous near-litigous incident between Avsim and Papa Tango some years ago, thus that'd be a non starter for the guy's case as well, since that precedent has already been set to some degree. So in short, I'd tell the guy to stick his legal threats where the sun doesn't shine if I were you, as it looks to me like a lot of barrack-room lawyer flannel in a clumsy attempt to bully you out of existence in a carbon copy of what PT tried to do a few years ago with Avsim - and failed. Al

[atco 161]

Clearly AIG know that they are right and this individual doesn't have a leg to stand on.The point is that this is a hobby and people simply can't be bothered to go through hassle and fights and problems. The real World contains more than enough of that. This individual claims that he is going to freely use not only AIG's work but those of every other AI author and use them as he sees fit, and if that were not bad enough he claims that he will modify any work as he sees fit and then redistribute it as his own. AIG has simply decided that we cannot continue to operate under such circumstances. The group simply does not have the will to start down that road, its simpler and easier to just shut it down under those conditions.It should be known too that during our investigations into this individual that he is quite happy sharing payware items, including installers and has done so for some time. We have uncovered evidence that he seems to be quite active in the pirate arena, so given that mere freeware copyrights are clearly of no concern to him whatsoever.

[momtchil 32]

Clearly AIG know that they are right and this individual doesn't have a leg to stand on.The point is that this is a hobby and people simply can't be bothered to go through hassle and fights and problems. The real World contains more than enough of that. This individual claims that he is going to freely use not only AIG's work but those of every other AI author and use them as he sees fit, and if that were not bad enough he claims that he will modify any work as he sees fit and then redistribute it as his own. AIG has simply decided that we cannot continue to operate under such circumstances. The group simply does not have the will to start down that road, its simpler and easier to just shut it down under those conditions.It should be known too that during our investigations into this individual that he is quite happy sharing payware items, including installers and has done so for some time. We have uncovered evidence that he seems to be quite active in the pirate arena, so given that mere freeware copyrights are clearly of no concern to him whatsoever.

It would be a shame to loose AIG over one idiot. Can you try what WarpD has suggested?:

......................... AIG should simply do the following: 1 - File a DCMA complaint with register.com. They maintain the domain registration for 'ICE'.2 - File a DCMA complaint with weebly.com. They maintain/provide the web servers for 'ICE'. Those two alone should be sufficient to remove 'iCE' from any further discussion.

[scott967 62]

There is at least some grounds for claiming that you do not own the copyright of liveries which have logos that are not your property, but of course that isn't going to make them his. Nevertheless, most airlines simply view the use of their liveries on flight sim aeroplanes as an extra bit of free promotion of their corporate identity to be honest (with one or two exceptions), so it's largely a moot point anyway. This very notion was in fact demonstrated in a famous near-litigous incident between Avsim and Papa Tango some years ago, thus that'd be a non starter for the guy's case as well, since that precedent has already been set to some degree. So in short, I'd tell the guy to stick his legal threats where the sun doesn't shine if I were you, as it looks to me like a lot of barrack-room lawyer flannel in a clumsy attempt to bully you out of existence in a carbon copy of what PT tried to do a few years ago with Avsim - and failed.

I think the question of using a "livery" would be one of trademark/servicemark/trade name/trade dress which is different law than copyright. That's assuming you didn't use some one's copyright image from say airliners.net to create a derivative work. scott s..

[Chock 17,769]

Not so, the intellectual copyright for a logo belongs to the person who created it, i.e. the design agency/designer who originally knocked up the design itself. It's use as a trademark or identity is a different thing altogether from intellectual copyright, which would indeed be covered under trademarks. Al

[Raindance 25]

"..the intellectual copyright for a logo belongs to the person who created it, i.e. the design agency/designer who originally knocked up the design itself." Not necessarily; it could come under the heading of 'work for hire', and be owned by whoever did the hiring (e.g. the airline). It basically depends on what contractual arrangements were made between the designer(s) and their client. In the case of an airline livery I imagine that the airline company would want full IP ownership & control.

[integral 0]

Okay ! I've read AIG closing topics on FlightSim.com and Avsim.com and followed the Facebook page of AIG, seek fore some info about Salvator/Iceman and followed the ### AI Traffic blog. The what I see : 1) AIG closed !2) By this closure, AIG acted like a child as there is nothing to do except letting Iceman or anyone else stealing Freeware (or Payware, no matter ?) Ah! no, sorry, it's not "stealing", it's just recompilation lol.3) We, as simple flightsimmers sould stay out of the way and let AIG and ICE make a deal... Wait and see.4) Noone should burst into flames because every second, there is one thousand freeware materials created by X and freely redistributed by Y, and anyone should consider Y as the real creator... (yes! someone pointed me out that ICE package includes AIG Readme. But According to ICE, AIG creators are NO LONGER the creators once ICE Package is out)5) Internet = free = freedom = maximum liberty = you can do whatever you want, incuding piracy. Notions like copyright, EULA, credits, legal, illegal (...) must be ignored ! Means : no rules, no ethics, no repect !?6) Everything is okay ! Stop sreaming ! everyone return to your usual doings...7) AIAardvark, EvolveAI, DJC, MRAI, SBAI, RATS, MAIW, WOAI, AIG, PAI, FSP, GW (...anyone! Active, reborned, defunct or future) Keep releasing creations, we keep taking them as our own property and do whatever we want with it..!!8) And by the way, any team specified above, you can't do anything, you don't have any legal basis : it's Internet. Ha-ha ! Ahhh ! Okay, this message is actually a response to the suggestion above, not only mgh.Sorry to be so sarcastic, but what is said is... well, I don't have words to explain my feelings. I'm taken aback! In fact, I may have a deep misconception of what I call respect :It's not your creation, not your property. Just send a simple mail like"ICE Project : asking permission for usage : models, repaints and filghtplans from AIG bla bla bla.."Asking permission may kill someone ? So : I'm just going to stare at the problem from far. That was the advice above, and I must admit the statement confirmed this point of view :Internet is an open/free area where everyone can do whatever he/she wants. If YOU (AIG, AIA, TFS, Cloud9...) are OK with that then, just continue as usual. If not, then just stop activity ASAP and close !!!Sadly, that's the way I understand it, I know you are well known in the FlightSim community, and with all due respect to you, I don't want to lie to you by saying "I totally agree, that ICE or FSPlanet are not wrong, that we should keep going on and live and let live..." No, I don't mess the whole thing. It's just, the what ICE staff has done is ONE Big reason why many developpers/creators give up ! The statements above tend to tells that anyone who has given up because of things like that behaves like a child. And for the "wether who tells the truth" : I've made my mind : If ICE has'nt done anything wrong, we would all have evidence by now. I totally thrust AIG. Karl Stephen - (fs)integralMadagascar

[777 340]

Well having wrote a "dissapproval email" to Salvador and being a forum member of AIG, this is not good news. Again where would we be with out World-of-ai who are also run by the AIG guys delivering all this free content to us? not to mention ai repaints/flightplans/afcads editvoicepack mods ..the list goes on. Im hoping for a resolution to this issue only brought about by the actions of an inconsiderate induvidual. (polite wording used)

[WarpD 824]

I love this statement:

Internet is an open/free area where everyone can do whatever he/she wants.

The RIAA has made a great deal of money off of people who believe that and download illegally obtained songs. It is not open, it is not free and you can never do whatever you want. Laws still apply.