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Benjamin J

737 PIC Evolution - October release?

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Oh I agree, the PMDG NG is indeed a tour-de-force of FS developement for sure, I'm merely pointing out that an 'officially approved' stamp is not necessarily an indicator of that kind of developmental expertise in itself, and may indeed be for another reason entirely. Fact is, most FS model aeroplanes that are sold commercially require the developers to seek some kind of official approval for several reasons beyond merely the promotion of its fidelity to the real thing. For example, check out the Lockheed Electra you get with First Class Simulations' Around the World in 80 Flights add on for FS. If you look on the back of the DVD box for that, you'll see that it has been officially approved by Lockheed Martin, and that's not because it's a super-accurate model which flies just like the real thing, but rather because the Electra model which comes in that add-on has the Lockheed logo appearing on the FS model's textures. Aircraft manufacturers are picky about that kind of logo use without approval, and in the case of the Electra, that's the old logo on an aeroplane that has been out of production for about 72 years! So it just goes to show that they won't even let that kind of thing go even when its depicting stuff they don't even make any more. Al

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Oh I agree, the PMDG NG is indeed a tour-de-force of FS developement for sure, I'm merely pointing out that an 'officially approved' stamp is not necessarily an indicator of that kind of developmental expertise in itself, and may indeed be for another reason entirely. Fact is, most FS model aeroplanes that are sold commercially require the developers to seek some kind of official approval for several reasons beyond merely the promotion of its fidelity to the real thing. For example, check out the Lockheed Electra you get with First Class Simulations' Around the World in 80 Flights add on for FS. If you look on the back of the DVD box for that, you'll see that it has been officially approved by Lockheed Martin, and that's not because it's a super-accurate model which flies just like the real thing, but rather because the Electra model which comes in that add-on has the Lockheed logo appearing on the FS model's textures. Aircraft manufacturers are picky about that kind of logo use without approval, and in the case of the Electra, that's the old logo on an aeroplane that has been out of production for about 72 years! So it just goes to show that they won't even let that kind of thing go even when its depicting stuff they don't even make any more. Al
I agree, licensed does not mean accurate. Anyways, I hope this remake of the 737NG is good. Unfortunately for me though, every Wilco/Feelthere product I have purchased has given me strange stutters that I do not get with any other add-ons, which is a real shame because I have the 737, E-Jets, and ERJ products, but don't use any of them because of this issue.

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I don't understand how being a VA person means the NGX has no use for you? There are many real world and virtual airlines operating 737 NG's. I fly the NGX for www.swavirtual.com.
Simple the "VA" I fly for uses the classics 733/4, I understand there may be other va's that use the NGX but im not joining a new va just because they use the NGX. I think i'll wait till PMDG release the 777.

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I agree, licensed does not mean accurate. Anyways, I hope this remake of the 737NG is good. Unfortunately for me though, every Wilco/Feelthere product I have purchased has given me strange stutters that I do not get with any other add-ons, which is a real shame because I have the 737, E-Jets, and ERJ products, but don't use any of them because of this issue.
Yeah, that's what I'm a bit afraid of also. I'm not sure why, but Wilco/Feelthere stuff has given me some strange performance issues and stutters that I don't get with any of my other planes. I was too lazy to try and identify the problem, knowing that I have so many other planes to fly and I anyway don't really like Embraer aircraft (just not a fan of their design, is all).

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Yeah, that's what I'm a bit afraid of also. I'm not sure why, but Wilco/Feelthere stuff has given me some strange performance issues and stutters that I don't get with any of my other planes. I was too lazy to try and identify the problem, knowing that I have so many other planes to fly and I anyway don't really like Embraer aircraft (just not a fan of their design, is all).
Same thing I got with the Airbuses. I noticed when using them the frame rate would jump all over the place, sometimes jumping into the 100s then back to 20s I would think it's down to bad optimization on the developers part.

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Good point about the performance. For some reason the Wilco 737 is the biggest frame hog in my hangar. I don't understand why a graphically lush product like Captain Sim's 727 gets better frame rates than the largely 2-D VC that the Wilco 737 has. That will be the thing I am most interested in hearing about.

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I narrowed the shutters down and discovered that they only happen when I make control inputs on my Saitek yoke and pedals. Never did find a fix for it.

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Good point about the performance. For some reason the Wilco 737 is the biggest frame hog in my hangar. I don't understand why a graphically lush product like Captain Sim's 727 gets better frame rates than the largely 2-D VC that the Wilco 737 has. That will be the thing I am most interested in hearing about.
That's almost certainly because the Wilco PIC 737 (in its older FSX form) is not a native FSX model, but a port-over from FS9. In spite of that it runs okay for me, but it can be an issue on some set ups, but in any case is not ideal from a development standpoint, and a native version would be less troublesome. Presumably it will have evolved into a fully-native FSX bird now with this upgrade, which should sort out the frame rate issues people have, with a bit of luck. Frankly, so long as they sort out the slightly naff exterior model of the original and tart up the VC a bit, that'd be fine with me, since features-wise I think it is okay, and it actually has a pretty good flight model already. Some people appear to have short memories where that is concerned though, forgetting that for a long time this was widely considered to be one of the best FS airliners you could get, which is true, because it was indeed. Al

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Such memories are usually marred by bad products following. In this case, the Airbus volumes, for the other planes aren't that bad. Regarding Wilco, though, I'm rather suer the support stuff also weighs in. They never had a good name to begin with, and sadly Feelthere is dragged down along with Wilco because of their long unclear relation with Wilco.

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I've been on the receiving end of some less than stellar support from Wilco once, and it was when I was doing a review for Avsim too: When I was reviewing the Áviation and Mission add-on for the Wilco PIC 737 (which is excellent by the way, and one of the plus points for the PIC 737 in that it has so many dedicated add-ons for it), I was having difficulty reinstalling the Wilco 737 since I wanted it on a clean FSX install, and of course you need the actual 737 itself to use the add-on, so I'd contacted Wilco to confirm serial numbers for the PIC 737, but they could not find a record of my purchase even though I'd given them dates times etc that I'd bought the thing. They did eventually locate my details and then did believe me when I said I had actually bought the thing, but it took them a few days to do so. I must admit I found all that a bit odd considering the whole point of me trying to reinstall the PIC 737 was so I could review their new related product for it, which of course helps its profile and presumably sales as well (unless it would have sucked as a product and got a bad review), so it was definitely in their interest to help me and was thus somewhat weird that they were not quite as helpful as I'd expected them to be given those circumstances. Of course it was all sorted out in the end, I got it installed and did the review, but in comparison to most other devs you speak to when reviewing stuff, it definitely could have been handled better than it was. I certainly don't expect special treatment for being an Avsim reviewer, but I did expect them to get on the case a bit quicker than they did do for a paying customer, which I was for the Wilco 737, it was no freebie review copy. In fairness, that's the only time I've ever had an issue with a Wilco product and I've bought plenty of them, including the new RJs just the other week when they were on special offer in the Avsim store, but I know others have experienced difficulty with the slightly nebulous nature of who it is that offers the support for Wilco/Feelthere stuff. Al

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I hope that there is a discount for the people who bought V1.
I wouldn't count on it. It's an optional upgrade (otherwise known as a patch when most other developers do that sort of thing LOL), so I should think the pricing structure will be the same as it was for the Airbus Evolution. Al

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I am interested to see what Wilco comes up with this time. Although, I was a bit disappointed with their Airbus Evolution upgrade.

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I can understand the frustration when it seems like you are treated guilty until proven innocent... It's an unfortunate fact that piracy is incredibly rampant in this "industry" as well as any other PC-based industry. Something to put this into perspective... Last week we found a security problem in our weather servers which was permitting so much pirate access that 58% of all usage was from pirates... yes, the majority of users were pirates. They were shutting down the servers for over-utilization preventing legitimate access. We went back into our logs and found that upwards of 30% of support requests in the previous 30 days were from pirates or otherwise unidentified users. We tightened up and increased our sales over 1000%... we required forum posters to use their full name. We hired a team of lawyers to take our server logs and start pressing charges. Now we are down to less than 10% pirate users and our servers are singing. Pirate support requests are minuscule. But they keep hacking and finding new ways to get in, and I've had to spend 8 hours a day alone on keeping on top of this. 8 hours every day that could have been spent on development. The point I'm trying to make is that developers are facing an immense problem with piracy and the sad fact is that developers and legitimate users are the ones suffering now, and everyone (including the pirates) will suffer later. Many developers have already, or are about ready to close their doors for this reason alone. They simply don't have the time or resources to prevent piracy, and fact is, most people won't pay for it if given any opportunity to get it for free. Piracy isn't stealing nor any ethical issue for most people these days. They can rationalize it a thousand different ways. In turn the developers, in order to stay in business, have to assume every potential "customer" is a pirate. Your experience kind of drives that point home.

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That is in fact one of the reasons why I always urge people to stop using the name 'pirate' to describe people who are software thieves; calling them pirates lends a kind of urban cool to the activity, where people can fancy themselves as someone 'getting one over on the man' in a jolly Jack Sparrow stylee. But I call a spade a spade, and I call a thief a thief, and if everyone else did the same, it would at least go some way toward changing the socially acceptable nature of what is, which when all is said and done, is common theft, and not something one should be able to feel cool about, nor talk openly about in front of one's friends and colleagues, as is the case when refering to it as piracy. Nobody goes into work bragging about having stolen a car last night, or committed a mugging or a burglary, because those activities are not given cool, socially acceptable monikers. Al

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Now I hope that this doesn't sound too rude, but the thread title refers to the upcoming 737 PIC V2, the thread tenor was actually focused on this and the only posts being completely off topic are the ones about piracy. Wrong thread or did I miss the turning point of this one, somewhere between post 63 and 64? unsure.png

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It's not off topic, we don't know much more info up to now, and so the topic turned to support, which is somewhat confusing for Wilco products and a concern for some, and since there are occasional problems with it when offering support to legit users, the problems of who is a legit user cropped up. Which is all perfectly relevant and a logical progression for the discussion. Al

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Ah, there you are. Support attitudes. Makes sense, Alan.I think I just couldn't follow the way too simple path from that down to "piracy in general". If the support attitude doesn't fit, the customer won't buy (again). That doesn't make him a pirate, it just doesn't make him a customer. Seems like some companies don't get that point while others have a happy customer base and a protection/validation running. I wouldn't relate any of the given examples to Wilco though.

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I should have quoted Alan's post, I can see how it was confusing.. sorry about that.. was just trying to share my opinion on Alan's experience with Wilco support, and that although that doesn't make it "right" hopefully it gives a little insight from the developer perspective. More on topic, I too am eagerly awaiting this release!

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Simple the "VA" I fly for uses the classics 733/4, I understand there may be other va's that use the NGX but im not joining a new va just because they use the NGX. I think i'll wait till PMDG release the 777.
I think your "VA" needs to purchase or lease some NG's.. pretty simple to do with "V" money

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I think your "VA" needs to purchase or lease some NG's.. pretty simple to do with "V" money
Now where would the v realism go if we did ? lets stick to the real fleet and classics.

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Holy Thread revival,Has anyone got anymore thoughts on this, as release gets nearer.My concern is what Wilco Products do to the registry file in FSX, is there a way round this [i remember Ryan saying something like that[

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I think he referred to the dll.xml mixup which sometimes took place after installing the old PIC. I never had that sort of trouble with any Wilco product though.Still no data on the new release, so there isn't much to discuss or think about at this time. Maybe the first customers will give some insights, after the thing was released. A full range of 737 in FSX would be nice, that's for sure.So lets hope the 100 and 200 come in soon after the Classic. smile.png

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