You guys are putting a lot more thought into it than a RW pilot would. :)Select the app and the transition and it should work like magic. Pay attention to the speeds the FMC wants on the legs and configure accordingly.Alternately, if you're that worried about protected airspace, draw the limits with the fix page (eg, 10dme/LOM) and stay inside the ring. At 200kts, you'll be doing 3.8 nm/min so don't go out too long, and you'll be okay.25 degrees is all you need. You're flying a jet, not a C-172. Ditch the standard rate/rate 1 stuff - that's for your IFR check.

Just tried the rule of thumb, and it didn't entirely work for me though.Go to this link:http://www.fly-sea.com/charts/EGKK.pdfNow refer to charts 21-1. There you see and ILS/DME RW08R, with a procedure turn. I was coming from the MAY VOR, heading 277, towards the MID VOR. As shown, I started a right turn exactly 5 NM from the MID VOR, to heading 080, to intercept the localizer of ILS 08R. I used approximately 20 degrees of bank, because my TAS was around 150. But in the end, I came out wayyy to early, around 0.5 NM to the right of the localizer. What am I doing wrong? I'm sure that my bank angle was really accurate and stable all the time, because I was using CWS, and A/T.

When did you first realise that you would complete the turn too early? That is where you went wrong. By concentrating on the accuracy of your procedure, you completely missed the point of the procedure which was to intercept the localizer.

Wait, you say that all procedure turns on charts would take 1 minute? Correct? So if the procedure is 90 degrees, it would still take one minute? So the bank angle will be twice as low, correct?

nope, normally, all published turns are rate1-turns. Meaning it takes you 1 minute to turn 180 degrees.Meaning you turn 3 degrees per second.Bert Van Bulck

When did you first realise that you would complete the turn too early? That is where you went wrong. By concentrating on the accuracy of your procedure, you completely missed the point of the procedure which was to intercept the localizer.

Intercepting the llz: aim for 30 degrees interception angle, is that correct? Or is there a more important factor for interception?Bert Van Bulck

I don't normally use Jepp charts, but there does not appear to be a procedure turn displayed in the approach plate that you reference. That is what I call a Procedure Track (PT), a course that is to be followed. The trun will not necessarily be a standard rate turn back to the LOC because of airspeed or wind direction/speed. The easiest way to intercept the LOC would be to start the turn with a 20 degree bank (approxomately) and see what the the Trend Vector is showing on the ND and adjust the bank angle to where the Trend Vector is intercepting the LOC where you wish.Back in my steam gauge days I would have had the ADF set and adjusted our rate of turn based on the ADF needle. The Trend Vector makes life much easier. The bank angle will vary based on KIAS and the wind direction and velocity. Unfortunately it is a "feel thing" based on experience.I still use raw data to verify the ND/PFD. The old trust but verify thingy. <G>Bill

I also tried the ADF way, but I don't know at which point the ADF needle should be pointing, in order to know when to start the turn, or to know if your rate of turning is alright. So how do I know this using the ADF?

When did you first realise that you would complete the turn too early? That is where you went wrong. By concentrating on the accuracy of your procedure, you completely missed the point of the procedure which was to intercept the localizer.

I know that the actual procedure was to intercept the localizer. But I don't wanna be make unstable turns. (sometimes straight on, and sometimes 30 degrees bank for example). I want to make a stable turn with the same bank angle all the time, so that when I straighten out my airplane at localizer course, that I have intercepted it. As people told me, this turn is a procedure turn. So I tried the procedure for a procedure turn, of using 15% of TAS to calculate the bank angle. I calculated 22.5 degrees. I started the turn 5 NM before the MID VOR. I could see quite early that the turn was gonna be way to sharp, but still I continued to see if it was gonna work or not. And it wasn't.I just need a proper way of knowing this. For example at LOWI, LLZ 26, and then circle to land at RW08. I am coming from the INN VOR, heading 264, then I need a proper bank angle to line up with the runway. Because the procedure turn of circle to land at RW08, is really close to the runway. So if the turn is too sharp or not sharp enough, then I'll have to go around. I just need a proper way of doing this.EDIT; about the procedure turn at ILS 08R at EGKK. I was using CWS and A/T. So my bank angle was extremely stable all the time. I also started the turn at the moment I should have started it, (D5.0 MID). When looking the timer, I could see that I actually was turning around 3 degrees a second. So my turn was ok, and so was the moment of the start of the turn. I think that this procedure just cannot be used for this procedure turn at EGKK. It seems that this is not a rate 1 turn. If you look at the same approach plate, you can see that right next to it is another procedure turn, which is a much wider turn. Because this turn is wider than the other one, than can't both be a rate 1 turn, impossible.

I also tried the ADF way, but I don't know at which point the ADF needle should be pointing, in order to know when to start the turn, or to know if your rate of turning is alright. So how do I know this using the ADF?

The pointed end of the ADF needle on the RMI will point at the station and when it points to 80 then that is the inbound course to the station (260 radial). Try this for a smooth intercept of the LOC. AT the 5 DME point set the HDG to 050 (80-30=50) and push SEL. The aircraft should start to turn to the 050 heading. During the turn push the LOC button. The aircraft should turn to H050 and will automaticly intercept the LOC. If you were on a radar vector from ATC, they will (should) give you an intercept heading of NO MORE than 30 degrees of the LOC heading. Bill

The 8R EGKK isn't really a procedure turn. It's really more of an arrival. You hit the fix, you start a turn, when you're inbound, you arm the approach and let the plane do the rest. You really should be able to select all of those arrivals and transitions.Don't muck about with CWS. LNAV is best, and if you can't get the thing programmed, HDG SEL.

I want to make a stable turn with the same bank angle all the time,

Professionals don't fly like this, they don't fly by "arithmetic" or some strange rules like that, they don't pre-compute bank angles. My CFII always warned me that there is no place for arithmetic in single pilot IFR conditions. Pilots use Flight Director and this is a great tool that guarantees the smoothest turns with the least amount of mental work.

I know that the actual procedure was to intercept the localizer. But I don't wanna be make unstable turns. (sometimes straight on, and sometimes 30 degrees bank for example).

Why not?One common technique is to roll to max bank, count 10, level out and see where you are pointing, You would expect to have turned between 20 and 60 degrees, but probably about 45. If you made 60 degrees and you want to turn 180, then repeat for a count of 20 and check again. If you only made 20 degrees, you know you need to hold it for at least 40 seconds before you need to check again. Also remember that on high winged aircraft, your wing usually blocks your view of landmarks in a turn.Something often forgotten when flying the sim is that in a real plane you often cant rely on your instruments while in a turn. Your gyro heading indicator needs to be aligned with your compass on a regular basis (and after every significant manouver) and your compass cant be used while banked.When you are familiar with your plane, the conditions, and the airport you are approaching, it is normal to use secondary landmarks, so you might have a plan that says "I expect to be there about then, if I am a little early I will back off my bank or ease back pressure on the stick, if I am a little late, I will increase bank or increase back pressure on the stick. With two or three secondary landmarks (and a little practise) you will appear to be doing one smooth, controlled 'perfect' turn when you are in fact making lots of little adjustments all the time.

Hey, do you guys do a mag check before shutdown? How about, what's the best way to lean the engine?

Ha, ha. The point is not that us beardy pipe smokers could navigate with sextants and plumb bobs in the days when men were men and small furry mammals were nervous, it is that the way to do most things in aviation is to plan ahead and ensure your plan has plenty of things you can cross check so you will only ever make small corrections, even if you have to make lots of them.

Hey, do you guys do a mag check before shutdown? How about, what's the best way to lean the engine?

No and LOP.Bill

One more thing: in real life, you wouldn't follow the published approach chart often. Normally ATC will put you on the llz.Bert Van Bulck

Professionals don't fly like this, they don't fly by "arithmetic" or some strange rules like that, they don't pre-compute bank angles. My CFII always warned me that there is no place for arithmetic in single pilot IFR conditions. Pilots use Flight Director and this is a great tool that guarantees the smoothest turns with the least amount of mental work.

Yes, but the flight director is no help in getting a procedure turn right which was the OP's question.Kevin Hall

Yes, but the flight director is no help in getting a procedure turn right which was the OP's question.Kevin Hall

Are you sure about that? I could be wrong but I had always just assumed that the flight director would guide a standard rate turn up to bank limits. If it doesn't, then how decide how sharply to turn?