You're missing the point. The reason SP1b changed the way it reads routes is:1 - COROUTEs never include SIDs/STARs. Why? When the navdata is updated, and the COROUTE specifies the RAVNN3, but the navdata has the RAVNN4, it's not going to pick it up. Computers are powerful, but they are very, very dumb. RAVNN3 does not equal RAVNN4, which will result in an error, and now you have to enter the route by hand. Defeats the purpose, right?2 - SIDs/STARs are often somewhat runway dependent (in the United States, the procedure isn't runway dependent, but the way they get entered in as navdata, they somewhat need to be). If you set one or another and the weather is different (the only unchanging thing in the world is the concept of change), you're going to have to select a new STAR anyway. What happens when weather hits and there's a giant storm cell over one of the transitions of your departure?"Aww, dangit, clearance, we can't accept a re-route, because our co-route is set."United 962, clearance delivery, roger. Departures using your transition are being held here until the weather clears. Expect further clearance 4 5 minutes. Time now 1556Z."Ladies and gentlemen, this is the captain speaking. We're going to have to wait out here until the weather clears because our co-route was set for us and we don't want to change it. ATC says about 45 minutes. We promise this won't be one of those 4-hours-on-the-ramp-things."(meanwhile, the passengers are all on their phones with their aunts/mothers/fathers/siblings outraged because they see other planes taking off through their windows, because those planes use co-routes like they're meant to be used)3 - If you (or whoever is providing you routes) are any good at what they do, your route will pick up at the end of a SID, and your route will dump you onto a STAR. The makes it all really easy. Click DEP/ARR, click [airport code], click SID, click [transition], click [runway] - EXEC. Go back to the index for DEP/ARR, click [destination airport code], click STAR, click [transition] - EXEC (note, I left off the approach and the runway, intentionally*).4 - It's just not done. I can't tell anyone here how perplexing this forum is to me sometimes. People here pay $70+ for a simulation of this aircraft, and yet they still insist on operating it like it's a glorified toy. If you want to load your flights with a route fully pre-loaded, you could've saved $70 by using the default 737 with an FS flightplan from any of the free route generators on the web. The built-in GPS would tackle that nicely.*A huge FS-ism is setting up the whole entire flight from the outset. Flights have an order. You don't get assigned an approach until you're in your descent, so you might as well just leave it until later. If you think about it, I could run through the entire checklist on the ground at my origin airport: set the plane up, start the engines, let em run for a bit, shut them back off, and power the plane back down without ever leaving the gate, but that doesn't get me anywhere does it? You're not supposed to shut down the engines until you're at your destination. There's a time and place for that. Same goes for setting the approach. The time and place is not at the origin, or 200nm out. It's in the descent.

Wow.As I stated in another thread, a month ago more or less, a real 737 Kenya Air pilot stated here in this forum how lucky he was inputting the route made by his former company into the FMC co route section.Of course he was perfectly aware of how to use a FMC manually but despite it, he stated the above mentioned sentenceSo, if it is gonna happening also in the reality, even if not so frequently, why I should have this option ruled out ?The answer is a tech reason ( alleged incompatibility of .rte files ), not a simulation one.Told that, I feel there is nothing more to add. In the future when the SP2 will be released I will reserve the right to change my mind, perhaps.Then, as another forumer here above stated, we have no F/O and a time saving task is welcome to me.-

I have just got myself FS Commander 9 and love it! Mainly because( hush my mouth) I don' t fly SIDS or stars as I like to make my own flight plan using user waypoints, which is a doddle in FSC. Yes, I will be another simpleton not upgrading to SP1 b, even though I start all my flights from dark and cold, like to understand as much as I can about the NGX but not to the point that my enjoyment is sacrificed at the cost of taking every aspect of realism to the umpteenth degree. I hope this doesn't make me a nonk!

Bought Vroute premium, best investment ive ever done regarding a flight planner. Ive used different ones before, such as FOC etc, but Vroute is the easiest and quickest and best for me.

I just don't get it. It takes 5 seconds to add a sid and a star to a co route. Why would you not upgrade to SP1b for the sake of 5 seconds extra work. Plus you get to learn more about programming the FMC. It is such a basic thing to do...so what if you have a disconuity to get rid of...all part of the fun. Good on you PMDG for sticking to 'as real as it gets'.Andrew Vincent

I have just got myself FS Commander 9 and love it! Mainly because( hush my mouth) I don' t fly SIDS or stars as I like to make my own flight plan using user waypoints, which is a doddle in FSC. Yes, I will be another simpleton not upgrading to SP1 b, even though I start all my flights from dark and cold, like to understand as much as I can about the NGX but not to the point that my enjoyment is sacrificed at the cost of taking every aspect of realism to the umpteenth degree. I hope this doesn't make me a nonk!

I feel you, also because FSC9 is a masterpiece in terms of SID, STARS, Transitions and waypoints management.I sincerely hope that PMDG will put this as an option within SP2, otherwise I am under the impression others will decide to stop upgrading.

I just don't get it. It takes 5 seconds to add a sid and a star to a co route. Why would you not upgrade to SP1b for the sake of 5 seconds extra work. Plus you get to learn more about programming the FMC. It is such a basic thing to do...so what if you have a disconuity to get rid of...all part of the fun. Good on you PMDG for sticking to 'as real as it gets'.Andrew Vincent

Hi Andrew, sure, but if I am not mistaken, Robert said the FMC will not recognise inputted flightplans withSP1b is this the case? If so, then sure, adding the SIDS and STARS may take five seconds but then you have to input all the rest of the data, yes? Personally, I really like the option of integrating all the necessary info in FSC in one place and then simply inputting to the CDU. I admit, I have much to yet learn and am happy to be steered along the correct path.

It works just fine. The FMC just ignores the sid and the star that you create with FSC in the flightplan. Then you just add them manually in the FMC.Andrew Vincent

It works just fine. The FMC just ignores the sid and the star that you create with FSC in the flightplan. Then you just add them manually in the FMC.Andrew Vincent

Absolutely wrong.My FSC9 works like a charm and I can export all SIDs, STARS, Transitions and waypoints and they work great within the co route section. Perfectly I would say.I only have to to add the runway and clear discontinuities if they exist but beside that FSC9 works great indeed.

Absolutely wrong.My FSC9 works like a charm and I can export all SIDs, STARS, Transitions and waypoints and they work great within the co route section. Perfectly I would say.I only have to to add the runway and clear discontinuities if they exist but beside that FSC9 works great indeed.

That is true under SP1 but not SP1b. The existing FSC9 flightplans of mine are loaded into the FMC without sids and stars as per...Andrew Vincent

Whatever you buy, consider the fact that PMDG have effectively outlawed "FSBuild". As FSBuild exports SIDS/STARS then the current FMC software will not import it correctly.Chris Hall

Chris,Please stop saying its been outlawed, that can't possibly be any farther from the truth. If you don't like adding a star during descent then add it at the gate before you take off or during cruise when you're just staring at the nd.Better yet, add it and then save it! Then youre all set any time you load that coroute in the future.

Flight Sim Commander is pretty good. My routes are from Airport to Airport with any SID's STARS or transistions, i use the FSC approach charts and enter manually within the NGX.With FS ATC you never know what runway they will be using by the time you get to your destination

Whatever you buy, consider the fact that PMDG have effectively outlawed "FSBuild". As FSBuild exports SIDS/STARS then the current FMC software will not import it correctly.Chris Hall

It doesn't outlaw FsBuild. It will still put the flight plan between your SID and STAR. Just generate your flight plan in FsBuild making sure your SID & STAR boxes are blank and the pick your departures and arrivals from your FMS. If you don't want to do your STAR in flight, then do it on the ground before you take off. Thing is, if you're using ATC of whatever flavour, that could change. So being as you don't have a copilot, use the 'P' key if you're a bit slow like me (us seniors are like that) and change your plans at your leasure. If the latter happens then it sure wasn't PMDG's fault.

It doesn't outlaw FsBuild. It will still put the flight plan between your SID and STAR. Just generate your flight plan in FsBuild making sure your SID & STAR boxes are blank and the pick your departures and arrivals from your FMS. If you don't want to do your STAR in flight, then do it on the ground before you take off. Thing is, if you're using ATC of whatever flavour, that could change. So being as you don't have a copilot, use the 'P' key if you're a bit slow like me (us seniors are like that) and change your plans at your leasure. If the latter happens then it sure wasn't PMDG's fault.

+1...see the same advice here: http://forum.avsim.net/topic/356168-losing-waypoints-after-sp1b/page__view__findpost__p__2187257

Some newbie questions here: how do you know which STAR to pick? Charts? And when you are descending and know which runway you have to land on, then what? Do you always get vectored to it? Or do you have to pick another STAR? Or another transition? Or...?I've been trying to figure out how to do a short hop from KSEA to KPDX with FSCommander but there isn't a STAR that brings me to the runway I want in a way that does NOT require acrobatic stunt flying...I've been thinking about giving Avliasoft (or whatever) EFB because that creates 'charts' on the fly and also includes SIDS and STARS: from what I've understood they aren't always realistic (?) but I suppose they are actually flyable... Main drawback is that you have to fly in windowed mode when you use EFB on the same PC... Then again, I might only use EFB for planning the flight and quit it before I start FSX. But then I would get into problems again when I have to select a STAR at arrival...Flight planning has been something I never really could figure out... Not even after all these years. Sometimes I thought I knew how to do it but then I'd always come across a flight that left me puzzled and clueless when it came to STARS... Maybe this also has to do with the fact that I usually do very short flights... I wish there was a program that would give me a complete flight and that would add SIDs and STARs at the appropriate time, fully automated!It seems to me flight planners still need a LOT data to be entered and a lot of manual input... I want a program in which I only have to type KSEA KPDX and then ENTER, after which I get a complete plan with all waypoints and all possible STARS that actually WORK...

If it's a short flight, in general, you're not really going to fly a SID or STAR in some cases. In others, your route is just the STAR (routes from ROA-IAD are essentially the ROYIL2/SHNON2 STAR because the STAR extends well past ROA). Take a look at the filed routes on FlightAware to get a good feel for how routes should look. Basically, if you're building your own routes, you want to find a STAR that picks up near where your route ends (or could end, to dump you right on the STAR).

In all fairness though, when you are flying in the real world you have another fully qualified pilot sitting next to you, which makes a huge difference to your work load and the time in which you have to do it. Therefore it is reasonable to expect that things like arrival procedure set up in the FMS etc has to be done a little earlier than post TOD. At least when you get to my age you do.

Yeah, but what else are you doing in the descent that's keeping you so busy? Watching the AP? I didn't say arrival, I said approach. There are several full minutes of time to set all that up on the way down, and it shouldn't take more than a few seconds, especially in the States, where you can kill time in cruise looking at the various approaches if you're really not that familiar with the destination. Either way, if you do it right before T/D, it's better than trying to stab it in there before departure. Just don't expect ATC to give it to you until you're with approach (which for most here isn't an issue).

Wow.As I stated in another thread, a month ago more or less, a real 737 Kenya Air pilot stated here in this forum how lucky he was inputting the route made by his former company into the FMC co route section.Of course he was perfectly aware of how to use a FMC manually but despite it, he stated the above mentioned sentenceSo, if it is gonna happening also in the reality, even if not so frequently, why I should have this option ruled out ?The answer is a tech reason ( alleged incompatibility of .rte files ), not a simulation one.

The issue is both tech and simulation. If you read Robert's post, he alludes to COROUTES not having SID/STAR assigned until it is hand selected in the aircraft, after the COROUTE import. You should also go back and have a look at what I actually wrote. I didn't say COROUTES were never used. I said exactly what Robert said: COROUTES aren't used in the manner people try to use them here.The tech issue is that some planners aren't writing the files in a completely compatible manner (as I understand the issue - but I set my routes in by hand the first time and just save them, so I have no idea what the issues are, tech-wise).The simulation issue is that you're never going to see SID/STAR set before the pilots enter it by hand. The COROUTE is a bare route with no SID or STAR set, for the reasons I ranted about this morning. Go ask your Air Kenya guy. He'll say the same.