Maintain 170knots to the outer marker

[AirbusCG 52]

here in the UK we says, 160kts until 4DME infect 4 miles, but what does it mean until outer marker? i assume its in the US right? what's that means?

The outer marker is the marker which is about 4-5 NM befor the runway. You can look it up on wikipedia here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Instrument_landing_system#Marker_beaconsAlso it's not in the US, but I've experienced this procedure many times here in Germany, for example in Frankfurt, Düsseldorf or Hamburg, but also in France and Spain already.

[rocketfs 2]

...and the OM is the FAF.

The OM is often used as cross-reference for an ILS approach and has absolutely nothing to do with the Final Approach Fix.The FAF is always much further from threshold than the Outer Marker.Bert Van BulckP.S.: ICAO defines that for each ILS approach there should be an independant cross-reference. Often that is an Outer Marker. A DME station/equipment is the alternative. Edited January 6, 2012 by rocketfs

[rocketfs 2]

Most often I am fully configured and through my checklists when approaching 600ft AGL. Is that normal?

Not really normal. Most airliners prescribe a stabilised appraoch, which means you need all off what you describe at 600' to have happened before 1000'.Bert Van Bulck Edited January 6, 2012 by rocketfs

[japascoe 98]

Depends on company policy, but usually they are refering to instrument approaches and in IMC. Durring a visual approach the flight crew may be relieved of those limitations. Atc usually won't ask you to speed things up if in IMC conditions. Which is one of the many reasons why airline schedules start to back up and get late when you have significant wheather at the arival airport

It indeed depends on company policy, but a commonly accepted safety guideline is that you should go-around if you are not in a stabilised approach (configuration correct, within 1 dot of center on LOC and G/S if applicable, landing checklist completed) by 1,000' AGL if doing an instrument approach, or 500' AGL if doing a visual approach.

[Spin737 102]

The OM is often used as cross-reference for an ILS approach and has absolutely nothing to do with the Final Approach Fix.The FAF is always much further from threshold than the Outer Marker.

Yep, you're correct. The LOM would be an FAF for LOC only approach.

[scandinavian13 5,192]

I'm gonna

The FAF is always much further from threshold than the Outer Marker.

I'm not sure if the ICAO runs a different standard on that, but here in the States, I'd disagree with this part.Example:http://204.108.4.16/d-tpp/1113/00516IL23L.PDFAPUCU is the FAF/GS Int, which is co-located with the LOM.

[mas618 17]

http://lmgtfy.com/?q...h+procedures%3F

ROFL ;)

[Paul Deemer 13]

I see a bunch of people talking about 250 knots? Isn't that a little fast? On VATSIM with ATC I have never had a controller that allowed me to intercept the LOC at that speed. Usually they have you at 180 to 210 knots max. So do they really intercept the LOC at 250 knots in the real world? I just can't see that being SOP's at any airline.

Edited January 6, 2012 by UAL115

[Spin737 102]

I see a bunch of people talking about 250 knots? Isn't that a little fast? On VATSIM with ATC I have never had a controller that allowed me to intercept the LOC at that speed. Usually they have you at 180 to 210 knots max. So do they really intercept the LOC at 250 knots in the real world? I just can't see that being SOP's at any airline.

If I was getting a base turn to a 7 mile final, I'd be at F5. If I was someplace where you can join the LOC >20nm out, I'd go fast. If you're a long ways out, LNAV would do a better job of joining at a high speed, probably.

[skysurfer 76]

No offense, but there's no way anyone's getting 250 to the marker. The marker is too close. 250 on the downwind vector, maybe.

Right on! I have never seen it in my 10 years ATC experience that any of us issued 250 kts at any point on final. This won't help neither controller no pilot(s). Overachieving not always helpful. I have asked controllers in Atlanta today about 250 kts over marker, they were unable to recall it.

[Buzz313th 0]

Right on! I have never seen it in my 10 years ATC experience that any of us issued 250 kts at any point on final. This won't help neither controller no pilot(s). Overachieving not always helpful. I have asked controllers in Atlanta today about 250 kts over marker, they were unable to recall it.

Maybe I missed something, but I did not see anyone mentioning that ATC issued a request to hold 250 till the FAF or OM. I do recall someone saying that someone mentioned that the CRJ can cross the OM at 250 and slow to make a normal landing though.I have seen flights hold very fast on the initial and even into the intermediate segments, but once past the FAF/OM if too fast, you would risk causing a runway incursion of flights ahead of you transitioning to the grnd controller and trying to get off the active. Most airlines would prefer the PIC to take the visual and get the plane on the ground asap (within safety margins ofcourse), as it helps scheduling/dispatch and ground crews turn em around in time and keep the flights on schedule. As long as the scheduled gate is available, early is preffered and it gives the ground crew a buffer incase catering and any other of the services are running late to get the plane off the ground again.All the above is why the Non network carriers are so succsesfull nowadays. Airlines like LUV are still capable of turning the entire plane around with a flight and cabin crew change in under 15minutes. Where AA might be able to get 5 flights out of a type for a given daily route schedule, LUV, when comparing apples to apples can get 6 flights out of the same aircraft, route and flight/cabin crew, which can equate to a margin of Plus 100k or so in revenue.I forget how much the estimated cost is when a plane starts to get late on it's route schedule, but it is quite a sizable sum. And nowadays, considering how tight the airlines are running, they can't lose any money.And remember, if Flaps15 vs Flaps 30 or 40 is decided upon for landing config, then your speed range for being Fully Configured and set (Stabalized) on the approach is much broader and would allow you to be set and established (Stabalized) much sooner. Gear down and flaps 15 just after crossing the OM/FAF at 220 and you can be configured, established, in the groove (Stabalized) and slowing in less than 20 seconds. Also, to change to flaps 30 or 40 late in the approach can be done if the PIC chooses to."Hmmmm Be the plane Danny, feel the plane"JB Edited January 6, 2012 by Buzz313th

[gtjoha 0]

Normal LOC intercept speed is about 220kt at 10nm, to my knowledge..Otherwise I maintain 180 to about 4-5 miles, and there is no trouble slowing down in reasonable time when going to F15 and then F25, or even straightto 25. Of course gear must be out, and engines at idle. Start configuring 1 mile early, so at 5-6 miles.OM is normally at 3-4 miles, so 170 shouldn't be a problem as I can see it? Just drop out your flaps, you don't even need to use the speedbrakes. In factthey shouldn't be used, they should be ready and armed for landing.That's my approach. Following a schedule might not work when ATC gives explicit instructions.

[skysurfer 76]

Sometimes ATC does funny things. I was jumpsitting to EDDF on A310. Tower gave us instruction to keep at least 180 kts till 4 DME and we barely did and then we were instructed to execute side step and continue visually on a parallel RWY. It drove nuts our captain and he was about to refuse, but check pilot said to comply with ATC instruction. Landed OK and saw that A340 landed right after us on parallel RW. Tower apologized and said he had no choice. Traffic.

[Daniel choen 23]

Sometimes ATC does funny things. I was jumpsitting to EDDF on A310. Tower gave us instruction to keep at least 180 kts till 4 DME and we barely did and then we were instructed to execute side step and continue visually on a parallel RWY. It drove nuts our captain and he was about to refuse, but check pilot said to comply with ATC instruction. Landed OK and saw that A340 landed right after us on parallel RW. Tower apologized and said he had no choice. Traffic.

Hey great one! who are you flying for?

[scandinavian13 5,192]

Maybe I missed something, but I did not see anyone mentioning that ATC issued a request to hold 250 till the FAF or OM. I do recall someone saying that someone mentioned that the CRJ can cross the OM at 250 and slow to make a normal landing though.

Someone mentioned before that ATL runs ops like that (higher speeds up to the OM).

I have seen flights hold very fast on the initial and even into the intermediate segments, but once past the FAF/OM if too fast, you would risk causing a runway incursion of flights ahead of you transitioning to the grnd controller and trying to get off the active.

Aircraft lower in altitude have right of way. If someone's cooking in and the guy ahead of them is still on the runway, it's not a runway incursion unless the tower controller or pilot allow it to be. The tower controller would tell the pilot to go around, or the pilot may initiate one on his own. I agree, though, that watching your speed and trying to fit in the flow helps everyone out, not mentioning you're not helping anyone out by pushing it.

All the above is why the Non network carriers are so succsesfull nowadays. Airlines like LUV are still capable of turning the entire plane around with a flight and cabin crew change in under 15minutes. Where AA might be able to get 5 flights out of a type for a given daily route schedule, LUV, when comparing apples to apples can get 6 flights out of the same aircraft, route and flight/cabin crew, which can equate to a margin of Plus 100k or so in revenue.I forget how much the estimated cost is when a plane starts to get late on it's route schedule, but it is quite a sizable sum. And nowadays, considering how tight the airlines are running, they can't lose any money.

Very true. SWA pilots are notorious for cooking in a little faster than the norm in an effort to save time. They also generally taxi pretty quickly, when compared to others.For those not fully familiar with the term, LUV = SWA, or Southwest.