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eSimmer

Wake me up when "you" have something new to report frm MS

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I'll be ignoring this particular forum, post this post: this forum is awash in "isms".There's optimism, pessimisim, doomism, gloomism, pollyannism:just a boat load of "isms", with no concrete evidence for even a blush "yeahism", FOR the purists.There are arguments pro con, stoning, and a touch what seems to be tangible dislike of "the other" in here.I have been reading this forum for years, longer than some of the "long term members": did not read it that much,but I would from time to time. Yes I remember the "fights" some of you had but, there is somethingfundamentally different this time around.What a few here have not yet realized is that we are at THE crossroads.Good luck: I really hope every side gets what it wants Flight to become.Maybe flight will eventually be able to satisfy everyone. In the mean time, I'm not waiting around.I'll be in the other forums.

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I'm leaning that way myself. I went over to the Flight Facebook page and this place is like an MS heaven compared to the drubbing going on over their. If they are not getting, or care not to get, some kind of a message from that, it is never going to happen period, They clearly do not need our input to get the drift.Bob

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You folks need to reread Tom's earlier message in his history and perspective post...We are NOT their target market, so get use to it...

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We might not be their target market but the Internet is awash with negativity from this community regarding Flight.Most of this is only speculation based on the existing material released by Microsoft so far, but I believe that gamers and reviewers are going to see and become influenced by all the ranting, resulting in a PR disaster.If Flight is more than just a game (which I haven't given up on yet), then MS need to let us know.

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I do not imagine they are ramping up with anymore missions to collect tokens. I would guess they are getting the message, go hardcore or stay home. Add on's will be geared towards what the masses ask, and what are they asking?

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Guest
Add on's will be geared towards what the masses ask, and what are they asking?
Seems you think we here are the masses... I thought by know it would be clear we aren't. :(

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Guest jahman
Most of this is only speculation based on the existing material released by Microsoft so far
The speculation is 100% MS's doing. They could stop the speculation dead in its tracks by releasing reliable information as to what Flight will, or will not be, and when.Cheers,- jahman.

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The speculation is 100% MS's doing. They could stop the speculation dead in its tracks by releasing reliable information as to what Flight will, or will not be, and when.Cheers,- jahman.
Think they kinda have...they may incorporate some decent add-on scenery areas, but not sure if they will add larger jets, but maybe not too the realism feature-wise that some enthusiasts want. I would be happy with some upgraded features that I have seen, I like the cloud shadows in the vc for example, with some airliners etc and some airports to fly to and from and I would be ok. I don't need ultra-realism, just something that takes advantage of some new tech over FSX and allows us to play with airliners:)

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The speculation is 100% MS's doing. They could stop the speculation dead in its tracks by releasing reliable information as to what Flight will, or will not be, and when.Cheers,- jahman.
Should Microsoft have released "reliable information to what Flight will, or will not be, and when" the day it announced Flight? Speculation started that da, and has got worse ever since.

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Guest jahman
Should Microsoft have released "reliable information to what Flight will, or will not be, and when" the day it announced Flight? Speculation started that da, and has got worse ever since.
Yes, it absolutely should have. Like it or not, after a couple decades MS flight simming garnered a following (a "franchise" I believe it's called), that needs to be kept informed via timely, reliable and informative press releases. Otherwise there's the rumour mill. "Nature abhors a vacuum" comes to mind...Cheers,- jahman.

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Let's be realistic.How could Microsioft have had "reliable information to what Flight will, or will not be, and when" at that time when it announced Flight's development?

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Guest jahman
Let's be realistic.How could Microsioft have had "reliable information to what Flight will, or will not be, and when" at that time when it announced Flight's development?
You mean all the folks that:
  1. Develop a business plan,
  2. Decide on functionality,
  3. Write the code,
  4. Beta test, and finally
  5. Ship the product

have got it backwards? Please...Cheers,- jahman.

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How could Microsioft have had "reliable information to what Flight will, or will not be, and when" at that time when it announced Flight's development?
I'm sure MS wasn't "winging it" when it got started with Flight. Before development started they knew exactly where they were going, anything less than that is disasterous in coding on that scale. However, some 'armchair quarterbacks' think MS should be forthcoming on what they are (or are not) doing with Flight. There has to be a certain day when we know if Flight will be what each of us want it to be. Neither yesterday nor today was that day. Maybe tomorrow. The point is, MS is the one in the best position to decide when to 'spill the beans'. They have been curiously tight-lipped through today, but rest assured, each of us will be answered when it's time according to MS.Opening a present is a lot more exciting when you don't know what's in the package.------Side note: Where the heck is the iPhone 5? I've had every iteration since the original and Apple won't tell me!

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Guest jahman
some 'armchair quarterbacks' think MS should be forthcoming on what they are (or are not) doing with Flight.
You're new to the forum, perhaps even to simming.When you spend thousands (litteraly) on a dedicated PC + simming hardware + aircraft + scenery add-ons, well then simming's no longer a game but a hobby. Mind, you spend all the money and time on the hobby gleefully, expecting the franchise you are familiar with over the last years or decades will continue.So perhaps "quarterbacking" isn't the right choice of words.Cheers,- jahman.

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You mean all the folks that:
  1. Develop a business plan,
  2. Decide on functionality,
  3. Write the code,
  4. Beta test, and finally
  5. Ship the product

have got it backwards? Please...Cheers,- jahman.

When Flight was first announced there could be no assurance that it would even be released - never mind what its details would be.The plug could, and would, have been pulled at any time during development if Microsoft decided it wasn't worth pursuing. In the real world projects go through several review stages. The last one - often called the red review - is final. If the project doesn't get through that it's killed.

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Guest jahman
When Flight was first announced there could be no assurance that it would even be released - never mind what its details would be.
Assuming you're right, what about the time since?
The plug could, and would, have been pulled at any time during development if Microsft decided it wasn't worth pursuing. In the real world projects go through several review stages. The last one - often called the red review - is final. If the project doesn't get through that it's killed.
Nothing about pulling a plug on a product inhibits releasing a PR statement before, at the time or after the plug is pulled.
So what hes new. His voice can still be heard!
Yes of course! I was just trying to explain that your view on MS's need to communicate might be different depending upon your level of investment in the sim game or hobby.Do you disagree?Cheers,- jahman.

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Microsoft is realistic enough to know that whatever it said would cause endless and pointless speculation in these forums, especially as those who naively are "expecting the franchise you are familiar with over the last years or decades will continue" wouldn't like it. It's been obvious that Flight wouldn't be FSNext from the day Microsoft stopped its development and closed ACES.

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Guest jahman
Microsoft is realistic enough to know that whatever it said would cause endless and pointless speculation in these forums, especially as those who naively are "expecting the franchise you are familiar with over the last years or decades will continue" wouldn't like it. It's been obvious that Flight wouldn't be FSNext from the day Microsoft stopped its development and closed ACES.
OK, so MS should instead have said: "the franchise you are familiar with over the last years or decades will not continue".Cheers,- jahman.

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You're new to the forum, perhaps even to simming.So perhaps "quarterbacking" isn't the right choice of words
My 'armchair quarterback' reference wasn't used in the context of one's simming or flight forum prowess. The term was directed to those who think they are experts in the marketing department of a multi-billion dollar company on the verge of launching a multi-million dollar international product and think they can better determine the best public revelation timeline for that product.One thing is certain, their experts are better informed and can make a better decision as to when to make the reveal than every one on this forum combined.

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OK, so MS should instead have said: "the franchise you are familiar with over the last years or decades will not continue".Cheers,- jahman.
Again be realistic - no company is going to put out a negative press release like that when developing a new product.I must stop using the word realistic in this forum!!
My 'armchair quarterback' reference wasn't used in the context of one's simming or flight forum prowess. The term was directed to those who think they are experts in the marketing department of a multi-billion dollar company on the verge of launching a multi-million dollar international product and think they can better determine the best public revelation timeline for that product.One thing is certain, their experts are better informed and can make a better decision as to when to make the reveal than every one on this forum combined.
You are completely wrong. Did you not realise that all those posters are CEOs of multi-million dollar corporations?

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Guest jahman
My 'armchair quarterback' reference wasn't used in the context of one's simming or flight forum prowess.
It's not a question of simming "prowess", it's a question of $ and time investment. As I said, for some folks simming is a game while for others its a meaningful hobby, and where you stand will dictate whether or not what MS does is important to you. It's not at all about trying to guess what MS is up to.For your benefit (and mgh's), do take note the reason some of us are upset by MS being tight-lipped about Flight is best explained by Tom Allensworth (the bold is mine, and since Tom's experience is way beyond mine, there's really no point in me continuing to explain):
It was at our FANCON in San Diego in 2004 that dramatic changes in direction were taking place within MS. An internal argument appeared to have been won, and MS team members showed up at the FANCON, willing to talk, on record, and participate with the attendees... The Golden Age of the Aces Team was upon us. The realization that users were being listened to and were getting feedback, positively changed the hobby and you can also see evidence of that today in these forums. The DEVCON and the FANCON that followed in Redmond, Washington, in the fourth quarter of 2008 was the last time that the ACES team made an appearance of any degree.Now, nearly ten years later, we seem to have come full circle. The team appears to be closed off and a spokesman (or two) have been saddled with the community as part of their job description.
Cheers,- jahman.

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In my mind we are the masses. The level of experience of the members of this forum is staggering. If I was an executive in the Flight stable, my cues as to what the reality of the situation lies within these walls. This is the deep end of the pool, and those swimming in it know their stuff. They know what they want, and to listen to the voices of such will lead Flight to success. A common theme rings very clearly within the majority of posts, bring on the realism, dump the gaming aspects. You can bet your bippy they are reading the forums and gearing up product we are requesting. We are the masses and know what we want. If someone want to learn anything about flying a sim, this is the place to be. The members are highly qualified users that mirror what all sim pilots are looking for. Build what we want, that's were the money is.

Seems you think we here are the masses... I thought by know it would be clear we aren't. :(

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It's not a question of simming "prowess", it's a question of $ and time investment. As I said, for some folks simming is a game while for others its a meaningful hobby, and where you stand will dictate whether or not what MS does is important to you. It's not at all about trying to guess what MS is up to.For your benefit (and mgh's), do take note the reason some of us are upset by MS being tight-lipped about Flight is best explained by Tom Allensworth (the bold is mine, and since Tom's experience is way beyond mine, there's really no point in me continuing to explain):Cheers,- jahman.
Microsoft fulfilled its responsiibilities when it sold you FSX. YYou still have it, together with your add-ons and so you are no worse off than now than if Microsoft had not developed Flight. You still have what you paid for and have enjoyed.Some of us can remember the criticism and abuse hurled at ACES by members of these forums both before and after the release of FSX. After that experience it's not surprising that Microsoft shut us out.
In my mind we are the masses. The level of experience of the members of this forum is staggering. If I was an executive in the Flight stable, my cues as to what the reality of the situation lies within these walls. This is the deep end of the pool, and those swimming in it know their stuff. They know what they want, and to listen to the voices of such will lead Flight to success. A common theme rings very clearly within the majority of posts, bring on the realism, dump the gaming aspects. You can bet your bippy they are reading the forums and gearing up product we are requesting. We are the masses and know what we want. If someone want to learn anything about flying a sim, this is the place to be. The members are highly qualified users that mirror what all sim pilots are looking for. Build what we want, that's were the money is.
We are not the masses, regardless of experience. There are too of usto make it worthwhile for Mocrosoft to develop the simulator we want. That was clear when it closed ACES and stopped the development of FSX because that's not where the money is.

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Guest jahman
Microsoft fulfilled its responsiibilities when it sold you FSX. YYou still have it, together with your add-ons and so you are no worse off than now than if Microsoft had not developed Flight
Not quite! :(Proof: Had I known FSX would be the last of the simulators by MS, I certainly would have made a smaller investment in add-ons and hardware. Likely others feel the same way too.Perhaps you might understand it better in business terms: Suppose you develop business or industrial software specifically using MS SQL Server. You do so with the expectation (unstated by MS, of course, but nonetheless your expectation is there with MS tacitly supporting your assumption) that MS will continue developping further, improved versions of SQL Server down the line. (In business this is termed the "going concern" assumption). Now suddenly MS fires the SQL Server team, and two years later announces a new version of SQL Server, but only for the home user, so you and your business are SOL.You as an MS customer would be rather sore and you would wish you had developed your software for the ANSI version of SQL Server instead. Well, this is why software developpers do in fact develop for a neutral SQL dialect, so they can switch between any of the major SQL versions around (MS, Oracle, Infomix) based on need and not have to bear the risk of a sole supplier for the SQL engine.Alas, we simmers are dependent on a single sim engine because our aircraft and scenery add-ons are tightly bound to the flight sim engine, while our sim hardware is dependent on the availability of suitable drivers. Hopefully in the future as the flight sim industry grows, standard ("open models") will develop for aircraft and scenery add-ons as well as standard device drivers, so by the year 2050 those of us still around might be able to switch from one major flight sim engine to any of the others in almost the blink of an eye.I hope mgh by now you see there are different interpretations as to MS's relationship with the flight sim community: A narrow strictly legal interpretation (yours) where MS's relationship with each one of us simmers finishes when the post-purchase technical support period ends, and a wider interpretation (mine) where MS has been feeding the sim community ever better versions of MS Flight Simulator for some 20 years now, so we're upset when after FSX we're told "that's all, folks!" because we expected the franchise to continue.Finally, under your strictly legal interpretation, if I were your local electrical utility or gas distributor, I could just turn off my service to you after a suitable notice period because, hey, I delivered the kWhs or MBTUs you needed to consume and you paid your bills. so all's fair and square between us and I have no legal obligation to continue delivering anything to you.Hope this clears up any differences so we don't need to keep discussing this.Cheers,- jahman.

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