Petulance and tantrums

[EagleSkinner 36]

I was just going to reply to a post in a separate thread, but the more I look through this forum, the more I am saddened by our own community, so I shall start a new thread and open myself to personal commentary from my peers...Hey... I have just realised... technically I am a 3PD too. OK, I don't make models and I have only done a couple of sceneryettes for Misty Moorings, but in my "EagleSkinner" life I have painted a couple of hundred different aircraft. Apparently some people think my lavatory even smells nice (sic). I did spend a lot of time with the SDKs for both FS9 and FSX - even though I really dislike html books (I much prefer paper - it's great for post.its). So I think I do qualify for the epithet "Third Party Developer" in that I have developed a fair few painting techniques of my own.So... am I a pi##ed off 3PD? Nope! I can already see ways of adding paints into the pak files and I am sure other 3PDs out there have looked at the pak tools on the market. It won't take long for people to figure out ways of inserting their own paints and even airplanes. The main question is will they want to? From the available leaks I really would say Flight! makes a start in the right direction. At the moment MS are dedicating a very small budget into developing it - sort of "Lick your finger and hold it to the wind" affair. I don't believe that all is yet lost.My real worry is that all this internecine squabbling within the flight simulation community is really letting the side down. The average age of a dedicated flight simmer is upper forties I believe, and having attended a few flightsim shows and fairs I would judge even older (the last symposium had more grey hair than a Schwarzkopf advert and more hairless pates than an egg farm). To be brutally honest (even if it does mean I include myself) I think that this austere community has well and truly shot itself in its own feet! Talk about childish behaviour! I see nothing but petulance in far too many posts with comments along these lines:"I can't fly jets in Flight! so I am going to sulk and stamp my tiny feet in rage until Microsoft do what I want them to do.""Flight only wants me to fly through hoops! that is sooooo silly! I want to fly from Boston to Atlanta in a "boebus. MS doesn't care what we think.""Only Hawaii is free, after that we have to buy the world in slices. MS is a money sucking leech!""Third party developers will lose business.""Third party developers are such boors."I feel a growing shame that I find myself in the midst of such a community. There are more flames here now than in many a "game" forum I have visited. Granted - many of the flamethrowers are at least polite about it, but having been at the end of some pretty vile four-lettered personal attacks by some anal retentive moronic twerp who can't even spell simple English words (that person is, by the way, a "native speaker" and most likely even British, to judge by his use of the vernacular) I really have begun to question the current sanity of what has otherwise been a very solid community over the years.If I were a teenager, just embarking on a game career of the flying kind, I would be thinking twice and thrice about sticking it out amongst such hate. I would even venture a return to WoW and Skyrim and even PONG! I may even return to Microsoft online backgammon rather than play with this infantile crowd of geriatric dementia.Yes, seriously folks! These threads are beginning to read like a day in an old age pensioner's home. There's old so-and-so sitting in his bath chair, drooling into his lap and muttering about the good old days. Oh, and look over there! There you see mister angry, lying in his soiled bed, enjoying it. Oh yes - the old colonel is there too, threatening to shoot "those damned natives" if they dare trespass on his farm.I could go on, but what I am really hoping for is a spark of optimism and seeing people look upon Flight! as an opportunity and not an enema take-over bid (deliberate typo!) Very soon there could be hundreds of new people interested in flight (lower case) and wanting to know more. Instead of frightening them off with tales of horror and woe, we should welcome them with open arms and show them just how much fun flight really is.As a footnote, I will also add that in real life I have been to real world flying clubs and also met this kind of hostility towards newcomers - it does happen and groupings like that do exist. All I can say is that not all clubs are full of po-faced sticklers who think that change is bad. I am glad that I can chose to go to other clubs and find a more pleasant community. ...And in the current case I sincerely hope that we can turn the tide here at Avsim and remain the pleasant, open, helpful and informative community I have enjoyed for the past 7 years.

[Guest jahman]

"I can't fly jets in Flight! so I am going to sulk and stamp my tiny feet in rage until Microsoft do what I want them to do."

Thanks for trivializing my concerns (and sizable money investment in jet simming), as already explained in other threads. Very thoughtful of you.Maybe, just maybe, without realizing it, you are part of the problem.Cheers,- jahman. Edited February 16, 2012 by jahman

[Guest dreckman]

so I shall start a new thread and open myself to personal commentary from my peers...

stormpup, very nice post. Unfortunately, I think it is going to fall on deaf ears. Oh look here is one now...

Thanks for trivializing my concerns (and sizable money investment in jet simming), as already explained in other threads. Very thoughtful of you.

jahman, you just don't get it and probably never will. Since you (and others) keep posting the same thing over and over and over and over in every thread.We get your point. You are entitled to your opinion. We are just tired of it. :(Can you still do all the things in jet simming you could do before FLIGHT was announced? stormpup's post is right on the money. :(

[ramrunner800 10]

I have stayed away from commenting on the subject thus far, but it seems that the petulance and tantrums are being thrown by individuals who are upset with posters who are disappointed by Flight.This thread makes no constructive argument, rather it lectures others for holding a particular opinion. The OP calls for civility and maturity, while personally attacking another forum member. It's all rather infuriating.There is quite a bit of petulance on this forum, though I think the OP got his identification of it a bit wrong. People have differing opinions, and there needs to be a bit more respect for our fellow members on these forums.I only hope that a mod finds and locks this piece of troll-baiting drivel before long.

[Nick Barber 0]

great post.. surely we'll find a way to modify aircraft textures, and maybe one day we can work out how to add scenery/aircraft into flight the old way!

[Guest jahman]

We get your point. You are entitled to your opinion. We are just tired of it.

No, you are definitely not getting my point, for if you did you would not be saying:

Can you still do all the things in jet simming you could do before FLIGHT was announced?

Please, don't make me explain it again.Cheers,- jahman.

[ramrunner800 10]

jahman, you just don't get it and probably never will.

What exactly is it that he doesn't get? How does having different goals and a different opinion mean he doesn't get it? Apart from your lack of respect for a fellow simmer, you don't seem to want to understand that some simmers are looking for something different than you are. Jahman didn't say your opinion isn't valid, and that Flight isn't great for you. He has merely stated, quite patiently and across many posts, why it doesn't offer what he and others are looking for.

[EagleSkinner 36]

No one who has invested thousands of dollars in FSX has actually lost anything, dear Jahman. You will still be able to fly your jets to the standard you are used to and for the product you bought them for.

[Guest jahman]

What exactly is it that he doesn't get? How does having different goals and a different opinion mean he doesn't get it? Apart from your lack of respect for a fellow simmer, you don't seem to want to understand that some simmers are looking for something different than you are. Jahman didn't say your opinion isn't valid, and that Flight isn't great for you. He has merely stated, quite patiently and across many posts, why it doesn't offer what he and others are looking for.

OK, you don't get it either. Mind, I'm not being disrespectfulf of you. I did state my position quite clearly in other threads and your readback as posted is coming back garbled. Not much I can do about it,

No one who has invested thousands of dollars in FSX has actually lost anything, dear Jahman. You will still be able to fly your jets to the standard you are used to and for the product you bought them for.

That's exactly not my position. Please re-read my post in the other thread..Cheers,- jahman. Edited February 16, 2012 by jahman

[EagleSkinner 36]

Ramrunner - you could be right in a way - after all, that is exactly what I am saying. Just in different thoughts - I am VERY disappointed by the arguments from both sides of the fence. I have seen better behaviour in a kindergarten. At least children have a reason (however petty) when they squabble.As it os, NO ONE here has an official leg to stand on except those who have broken NDAs and those who have discussed the rejections made by or given to MS with respect to making DLC for MS under the MS rules. More to the point - NO ONE apart from the beta testers has officially seen Flight! in action on their own PC.And then I must be very blunt with some of the NDA breakers - even they have missed a clue along the way and are breaking the NDA with unfounded and unreasoning argument. I think a lot of the moans may be coming from NDA breakers who didn't get given certain "privileges" by MS for being part of the beta team.Or could it just be that a certain interest group has smuggled some fifth columnists to undermine the forum by posting anger-provoking statements? My my, my mind does work in devious ways... that's it! It is a vicious plot to destroy faith by the simmer community in the future of flight games. I can see it now... there are some people in black, red velvet lined cloaks and with widow's peak hair styles in Redmond who are plotting revenge on all those people who took the word "Franchise" too literally.The thot plickens! Muaahahaha....

[JonRD463 146]

I'm not going to name names, because that doesn't accomplish anything, other than being viewed as a personal attack, but I will make a generalization.Everyone who is happy about Flight certainly has a right to be, but you do not have the right to be arrogant and condescending to those who have issues with it. What I'm seeing in this subforum are two major camps which are greatly overshadowing the people on both sides who are reasonable and respectful with their disagreement. The first camp is gung-ho, fired up about Flight and will not tolerate a dissenting opinion. They act as if an attack on an idea behind Flight is an attack on their very person. They respond by implying that dissenting opinions are childish and not worthy of any consideration, and they make threads simply oozing with that arrogance and condescension I mention. They're obvious attempts at trolling for an argument that usually ends up with one or more people reporting/getting reported. The other camp is the mirror image on the opposite side. Their distaste for what Flight is apparently going to be is treated, once again, as an attack on their very person. They feel that ALL people who seem to be taking a positive "wait and see" attitude are the very reason why Flight Simulation from Microsoft is dead. They have absolutely nothing to say even remotely positive about the game to temper their hatred, and as their mirror image above is wont to do, they're eager to plug their fingers in their ears and go "LALALALALA!" whenever the other side points out something that differs from their opinion.Again, what both of these camps are doing are casting a pall on the reasonable ones who either are willing to give MS a chance or are simply not interested in the new direction Flight is taking the franchise.What's happening is a complete erosion of discourse. I don't even know why I still open this forum from time to time. I tell myself that it might be to check for any news, screenshots, previously unreleased beta reports, etc., but I end up clicking threads like this out of morbid curiosity. This usually gets me a bit ###### and I close the browser window and head off to sites elsewhere on the net.I used to hold simmers in general in much higher esteem. Flight Simulation requires a bit more intelligence, perhaps a bit more maturity than what you see in other forms of computer entertainment. This forum, however, has just shown me that we're no different from the Call of Duty drones. Not one bit. It's really disappointing.And for the record, I'm of the side that's not happy with how Flight is turning out, and beyond a curiosity peek at the free download, I probably won't devote any time to it.

[ramrunner800 10]

OK, you don't get it either. Mind, I'm not being disrespectfulf of you. I did state my position quite clearly in other threads and your readback as posted is coming back garbled. Not much I can do about it,That's exactly not my position. Please re-read my post in the other thread..Cheers,- jahman.

Jahman,I do see that I've misinterpreted your point, and I apologize for misrepresenting it. My purpose here is not to rehash another thread. My larger point remains the same, some people on this forum have been intollerant of opposing opinions, and behaved very badly. I don't feel that you have been disrespectful of me in your post, or in your other posts I have read. You have always been quick to offer help when I and other simmers have questions, and I want to thank you for your contributions to the simming community. Edited February 16, 2012 by ramrunner800

[Guest jahman]

I'm not going to name names, because that doesn't accomplish anything, other than being viewed as a personal attack, but I will make a generalization.Everyone who is happy about Flight certainly has a right to be, but you do not have the right to be arrogant and condescending to those who have issues with it. What I'm seeing in this subforum are two major camps which are greatly overshadowing the people on both sides who are reasonable and respectful with their disagreement. The first camp is gung-ho, fired up about Flight and will not tolerate a dissenting opinion. They act as if an attack on an idea behind Flight is an attack on their very person. They respond by implying that dissenting opinions are childish and not worthy of any consideration, and they make threads simply oozing with that arrogance and condescension I mention. They're obvious attempts at trolling for an argument that usually ends up with one or more people reporting/getting reported.The other camp is the mirror image on the opposite side. Their distaste for what Flight is apparently going to be is treated, once again, as an attack on their very person. They feel that ALL people who seem to be taking a positive "wait and see" attitude are the very reason why Flight Simulation from Microsoft is dead. They have absolutely nothing to say even remotely positive about the game to temper their hatred, and as their mirror image above is wont to do, they're eager to plug their fingers in their ears and go "LALALALALA!" whenever the other side points out something that differs from their opinion.Again, what both of these camps are doing are casting a pall on the reasonable ones who either are willing to give MS a chance or are simply not interested in the new direction Flight is taking the franchise.What's happening is a complete erosion of discourse. I don't even know why I still open this forum from time to time. I tell myself that it might be to check for any news, screenshots, previously unreleased beta reports, etc., but I end up clicking threads like this out of morbid curiosity. This usually gets me a bit ###### and I close the browser window and head off to sites elsewhere on the net.I used to hold simmers in general in much higher esteem. Flight Simulation requires a bit more intelligence, perhaps a bit more maturity than what you see in other forms of computer entertainment. This forum, however, has just shown me that we're no different from the Call of Duty drones. Not one bit. It's really disappointing.And for the record, I'm of the side that's not happy with how Flight is turning out, and beyond a curiosity peek at the free download, I probably won't devote any time to it.

Many thanks for a great post!

Jahman,I do see that I've misinterpreted your point, and I apologize for misrepresenting it. My larger point remains the same, some people on this forum have been intollerant of opposing opinions, and behaved very badly. I don't feel that you have been disrespectful of me in your post, or in your other posts I have read. You have always been quick to offer help when I and other simmers have questions, and I want to thank you for your contributions to the simming community.

OK, ramrunner, no harm done, I do appreciate your post. We're all a pretty fired-up bunch of aviation enthusiasts here (I hope that's what will keep us all together), and inevitably we might misread someone else's post (can't say I've never done it myself!).Cheers,- jahman. Edited February 16, 2012 by jahman

[mgh 89]

Thanks for trivializing my concerns...

But they were already trivial

[xplanery 250]

Both those who spread optimism based on nothing and those who are against Flight have been rude, its not one sided at all.Also tell me how you are going to insert new planes to Flight if it has no public SDK available?No, Flight wont have freeware community at all. Maybe you can add new textures to planes, thats about it unless MS changes their direction.Its freedom of speech, we have right to criticize any product as long as its done politely, and of course not flooding every thread with it (just like every thread should not be flooded with positive speculation either). Just learn to tolerate it, of course personal attackers are different thing and should be punished.

Edited February 16, 2012 by FScamp