No photgraphy of Delta Airplanes allowed...

[gosta 0]

Hi David,you are absolutely correct. However, people seem to have found a perfectly legal 'workaround', whereby they'll ask the person to 'voluntarily' surrender the item - if you're caught with a camera at a rock concert for example, the security guards usually will give you two choices - surrender the camera until the end of the concert, or leave now... In this case, they're not actually seizing the property, as they've offered you an alternative scenario - you 'chose' to give up your camera.This brings up another question - Did the Delta lady offer Rob such a choice, or did she just demand the film?Cheers,Gosta.http://hifi.avsim.net/activesky/images/wxrebeta.jpg

[Guest]

Hi Gosta,I don't know if you saw this. I posted it further up the board:Your statement was so impressive, I proposed it to my attorney friend who made the following comment via email:As to the first argument, I agree - just based on general legal notions - that the owner of a premises may regulate conduct there. That would include a prohibition on taking pictures. Also, this would hold true even if the plane were in full view. I think the whole thing is determined by whether the gate area -- where you were standing -- is owned by the airline or by the airport authority. In general, the rights to regulate free expression (First Amendment to the Consitution) are much more limited in the case of a governmental entity such as the airport authority. Free expression does include picture taking. Under general notions of Constitutional law, the airport authority would have to justify the prohibiton on something like a safety concern or crowd management. Otherwise, you are freely engaging in your right to take pictures and the airline can do nothing about it because you are not on their property and their plane is in full view from a public area. By contrast, if they own the gate area, the First Amendment would not apply and they may impose any restrictions they deem fit -- regardless of how arbitrary.Also, the Delta employee did not give me a choice. She said, "I'm going to have to ask you to hand over the film."Thanks,Robb

[gosta 0]

Hi Robb,thanks - yes, I missed that one. It seems the e-mail notification system only notifies you of the post at the bottom of the thread, i.e. I got two e-mails saying that 'dfreed' had posted. I thought it was a glitch, but next time I'll look at all the posts. As to the employee, here we have the beauty of the English language. In writing, her statement just says that at some point in the future, she would be obliged to ask you to hand over the film - so no action was really required on your part, you could have safely waited until she actually asked, and then refused... However, I am sure that her spoken word at the time somewhat precluded the option of saying no, and she definitely did not offer an alternative, so that could be something to look into as well.Having said that, giving unexpected responses can have some entertaining results - the other day I bought some cigarettes, and when the cashier handed over the change, she said 'I didn't ask for your ID, did I?' I just replied 'No, you didn't', put away the change and left. The baffled look on her face was priceless... (I took it as a compliment, though - I'm 32 years old).I'd like to see how this story develops - make sure you'll keep us posted (From my experience, I expect it will require a follow-up letter from your friend, who seems much better suited for the job, as my area of expertise is criminal law, specifically commercial and international fraud, so my detailed knowledge of US law is somewhat limited to the securities laws and regulations).Cheers,Gosta.http://hifi.avsim.net/activesky/images/wxrebeta.jpg

[Guest]

I was taking pictures at MSP and I had a security person come and ask me what I was doing. I simply said I was just taking pictures of the planes, there was an ex-TWA plane painted in the TWA/AA scheme and I told him that was one of the reason I was taking the picture, which is the truth. He just said

[Guest]

Thanks Paul,I have written a letter and sent it to the VP of Operations and one to Customer Care at Delta. This is an interesting one.Robb

[Guest]

Hey Gosta,I kind of figured you were an attorney. Your legal reasoning seemed too sharp for a typical layman. I believe if I had of refused, she would have gotten the security guard on me. So, regardless of the equivocal nature of her language, it would not have taken much for to give her what she wanted. In addition, she did not seem to have a grasp of the proper use of the English language herself to create an equivocal stance like you suggested - even though she is American. There were lines of people, and it seemed like the whole terminal gate area was staring and whispering. I certainly did not want to create more a scene. Also, if it is indeed a Delta regulation, and they do lease the gate, then I was in the wrong. So, I will drop the issue if that is the case. However, you would at least think they would post that no photography is allowed at the gate, on the back of tickets, on their website, or somewhere. I mean, I have taken pictures at that terminal gate before (many times), and I am not the only person in the world who might be inclined to snap a photo of a plane, so they should at least have the courtesy to do their part to avoid such incidents. Overall, I think Delta are a great airline. But, it only takes one bad experience to ruin a great thing. If I hear nothing back from Delta, or if they give me some BS answer, I will simply get back at them by not buying another ticket from them. There are other airlines who serve the same routes. I make four to five flights a year out of ATL with at least one being an international flight. I will then choose to spend my money elsewhere, so they are out 2000 bucks and their competitors are in with 2000 bucks. In addition, I will do my best to discourage others to fly with Delta. My contribution is minuscule, but they need all the money they can get, because the talk of the town is that they are headed in the way of US Air and United. And, there have been 600 or so people who have read this, and my other post regarding this issue, so I would not be surprised if some of them tell others which might influence others in the future. And, you know how stories evolve. TYou can't go making your customers mad.We will give them a chance to respond though, and I will keep you updated.Thanks a million for your input Gosta!Robb

[Guest emergency_pants]

Good luck with it... even though my personal thoughts are to respect the decision that the airline rep made. It might not be LAW, but she did what she thought was right.Did you ask her whether you could have the pictures back, MINUS the photo in question? And offered to pay for the developing cost? What are the chances of them still having that film?Cheers,Simon.

[Guest]

I don't think I'll ever see that film again. I was only half way though the roll, but I had some beauties on there. If it is not law or regulation, she can't just take photos from me any more than I can take them from you if we were both standing at the gate.Robb

[Guest]

I have received a response from Delta with regard to this incident. I just thought I'd keep you guys updated.Robb

[gosta 0]

Hi Robb,that's great, but what did it say? :-).Cheers,Gosta.http://hifi.avsim.net/activesky/images/wxrebeta.jpg

[Guest]

Dear sir,Hi Gosta,Dear Sir,Thank you for contacting Delta Airlines regarding the situation with our personnel at the Washington Regan National Airport. It has been requested by our Executive offices that I address any concern you may have with our personnel.We are sorry to hear of the surrendering of your film and the handling you endured after photographing one of our aircraft at the gate. It has been determined that we do not have an established policy that prohibits photographing a Delta aircraft while waiting at the gate. Only when security areas or procedures are recorded is there a violation. Therefore, no Delta policy or regulation was breached by your actions mentioned in your letter. We do apologize for any misunderstanding on behalf of our agent and that you did not receive an explanation.Thank you again for your taking time to contact us and we do hope that you will give us another opportunity to merit your support.Sincerely,Gosta, what do you think of their reply?Delta Airlines

[Guest]

It is obvious that Delta does not train its personal and they are very rude. I made a telephone flight reservation from DTW to Try Cities, Washington, They routed me to Atlanta, which is not unusual since it is a Delta Hub. When I got to the gate where my connection was I found that they had those little 20 seaters. I knew something was wrong so I went to the ticket counter and he said that the ticket was for Tri Cities Tennessee. He sent me to the main terminal where the Delta office was. They accused me of trying to pull something over on them and would not correct the situation. They wre very very rude.I had to pay $500.00 additonal to get to Washington State. I was not at my best, I just had lost my life's companion, a woman who had been the light of of my life.In Washington much later, the agent there issued a credit to my card and gave me a $100.00 voucher.When I called on the phone I said I want to go to Richland Washington.The woman I talked to had no idea. I had seen the airport there on FS called Try City so I said Try City Washington. And she sent me to Try City Tennessee.

[gosta 0]

Hi Robb,looks like they're admitting a mistake without conceding they've done anything wrong - they say there's no 'established' policy and that no 'Delta' policy was breached, meaning there could be an 'unestablished' policy effective only at gate 45C at DCA, for example. Also, they don't appear to have talked to the agent, as they say no regulation was breached 'by your actions mentioned in your letter'. Finally, they're only apologising for any 'misunderstanding' and the fact that you received no explanation for the employess actions. That's not all that unusual, they're trying to apologize without jeopardizing any defence they might have, should you decide to sue them after all... Quite rightly so, companies have to be careful these days, considering all the ridiculous lawsuits before the courts at the moment - check this one out, for example: http://www.chron.com/cs/CDA/story.hts/business/1772542 .I think you should send a polite reply, thanking them and ask for the return of your film (the original, not a replacement).Cheers,Gosta. http://hifi.avsim.net/activesky/images/wxrebeta.jpg

[Guest]

Gosta,Once again, you acumen is superb. I was not able to read that into Delta's response prior to your insight. I suppose the supervisor woman at the gate was feeling a little pumped up that day. She probably just barely graduated from high school and thus was on a power trip. Anyway, I was ripped off and embarrased by Delta and won't be using them again. They obviously don't need my money since they are doing stellar right now in terms of their business. I will write a letter back to them and post it here. I let you read it before I send it to make sure you agree with my wording.Thanks,Robb

[Guest]

Hi Titus,I am sorry to hear about your experience. I am also sorry to hear about your'e loosing your life's companion as well. What a bad time of life for Delta to have chosen to be rude to you! They seem to hire incompetent personnel. Them accusing you of trying to pull something over their eyes says a lot more about them than you. I hope things have gone better for you since that time.Robb