Crossing the Pacific before the 747-400?

[Guest]

I'd be very interested to know what routes Qantas used across the Pacific before the 747-400 was introduced. I know they now fly non-stop between Sydney and Los Angeles with the -400. I'm guessing in the days of the 747-200 they must have needed a stop somewhere enroute? Hawaii perhaps?Also current British Airways and Qantas routes between London and Sydney have stops in either Singapore or Bangkok. I presume this was also the case when these airlines operated the -200 on these routes?Cheers.

[Guest]

Can't speak for Quants or even actually "current" BA, but I thought you might be interested in what I know was the route in the days of the Boeing 707s and Vickers Super VC10s. I flew to Los Angeles from London/Heathrow in 1969 and at the time the flight was part (two segments) of the flagship "Round the World Service" of the then BOAC.This flight was flown using the Vickers Suepr VC10 one of the most delightful aircraft I think I've ever flown, and vey elegant visually as well as for the time an incredible performing a/c. There are examples available for FS2K2.The lady sitting next to me was headed for Sydney, Australia.The route from Heathrow to Sydney was;Heathrow(EGLL) - Kennedy(KJFK); all pax continuing in Transit loungeKennedy(KJFK) - Los Angeles(KLAX)Los Angeles(KLAX) - Honolulu, Hawaiian Islands(PHNL)Honolulu, Hawaiian Islands(PHNL) - Nadi, Fijian Islands(NFFN)Nadi, Fijian Islands(NFFN) - Sydney(YSSY)from there the countinuation, I recall was;Sydney(YSSY) - Perth(YPPH)Perth(YPPH) - Singapore(WSSS)Singapore(WSSS) - Bombay/Mumbai(VABB)Bombay/Mumbai(VABB) - Beirut(OLBA)Beirut(OLBA) - Heathrow(EGLL)Hope this helps/is of interest ;)Ian Abel

[Guest Scott Campbell]

The first San Francisco/Sydney scheduled non-stop route was begun in 1959 in a Qantas 707-138 intercontinental. That model was used long after the 747-200 came out. I believe John Travolta's Qantas 707 is one of the original 2 that pioneered the non-stop route. I think all of this may be on the Qantas site, but I've not looked for a while.Today there are (about) 3 airliners that can fly that route - although I've only seen the 744's do it. It would be much more economic for a 777-200LR to fly it, but imagine how people would freak flying 14 1/2 hours on two engines. I frankly don't know how anyone flies 18 hours in the thing.I believe the other aircraft is an A340-200 or -300 LR adaptation.In any case, back to your question. The answer is non-stop in a 707. I think they hopped from Hawaii to Fiji (with something in between) to Sydney before the jets came along.

[Guest]

Thanks for all the info.I'm actually asking because I want to take a flight from Australia to the US west coast in the new RFP 747-200, and I was curious about how Qantas flew these routes before the introduction of the 747-400. That's assuming they did actually use the 747-200 on these routes?Actually, now I come to think of it they probably would have used the 747SP on the trans Pacific routes, right?

[Guest]

OK, so I did a little detective work on Airliners.net...There are plenty of pics of Qantas 747-200s at Los Angeles (the most recent are dated 1999). There aren't any pics of Qantas 747-200s at Honolulu, so I'm guessing they flew non-stop across the Pacific.I bet those -200s had to fly with a pretty small load to be able to carry enough fuel to get them across the ocean!

[Guest Scott Campbell]

Nick,I'll have to dig around the history pages and see what I can find. I'm sure the West->East route is okay with tail winds, but I'll have to check and see how Qantas' routes looked. I know they did have a Hawaii flight that ended in 1995 or so.My guess is that with a 742 they landed in Fiji, refuled, then to Sydney. The 744's do that still today with high head winds.

[jagabom 21]

Interesting story Ian. Would have been a great flight. Long to I bet?JimCYWG

[Guest Scott Campbell]

Nick,I asked our Aussie team member your question and here's his reply.-------------------------From what I hear, in those days since the fuel stops didn't involve any pax movements, different cities could be used, and not any particular stop on a route. So for the SYD-LAX sector, most stops were in HNL, but not all QF flights did this. Sometimes Papeete in Tahiti, and Nadi was the stop point. Sometimes when heavy and winds weren't good stops and Nadi and HNL would take place. And for LAX-SYD, the first stop was at HNL and sometimes a stop Auckland was also done before reaching SYD. Similarly the Persian Gulf was the "technical stop" point for the flights to Europe, and Bahrain was QF's favourite there, but sometimes also stopped at Dubai, Abu Dhabi and Kuwait City. Then, as is now, Singapore and Bangkok was also one of the points. Basically, 7hr hops to wherever the destination was. QF also acquired the 747SP early on too, and this did away with the stops required as by the 742s and 707s - so SYD-LAX was operated non-stop. Some flights from the mid-80s: QF1 SYD-SIN-BAH-LHR QF3 SYD-SFO (747-38SP) QF5 SYD-MEL-SIN-BKK-BOM-ATH-FRA-AMS (epic!) QF9 SYD-BKK-LHR (introduced with the B747-338) QF11 SYD-LAX (747-38SP) QF 707 flights: BNE / DRW / SIN / BOM / BAH / FCO? / LHR SYD / AKL / PPT / MEX / BDA / NAS / LHR A BA 742 route: LHR-BAH-BOM-HKG-SYD-MEL Cathay used to fly HKG-LHR and back non-stop with their 742s when they got the RB211 from RR. But it was always risky and a earlier stop was often required since winds aren't always favourable. Hope this helps, Subs

[Guest]

Excellent! Just what I was looking for. Thanks.I've recently become very interested in flying some of the older jets in FS (eg 707, 727, 741/742, DC-8, DC-9, BAC 1-11, VC-10, Trident, etc). Are there any sources I can use to learn about the routes these aircraft would have flown in their heyday?

[Guest]

Timetable Effective 1st December 1954Sydney-Darwin-Jakarta-Singapore-Bangkok-Calcutta-Karachi-Beirut-Rome-Frankfurt-London. Flight EM631 ops by Super Connie. "Kangaroo Route" Sydney-Auckland-Nandi-Canton Island-Honolulu-San Francisco-Vancouver. Flight EM702 ops by Super Connie. "Southern Cross Route" Sydney-Melbourne-Perth-Cocos Island-Mauritius-Johannesburg. Flight EM601 ops by Constellation. "Wallaby Route" Sydney-Brisbane-Cairns-Port Moresby-Samarai-Esa'ala-Rabaul. Flight EM310 ops by Sandringham. "Bird Of Paradise Route" Timetable Effective 1st November 1962Sydney-Darwin-Singapore-Calcutta-Karachi-Cairo-Athens-London. Flight QF731 ops by B707. Sydney-Brisbane-Singapore-Bangkok-New Delhi-Teheran-Athens-Rome-Frankfurt-London. Flight QF735 ops by B707. Sydney-Nandi-Honolulu-San Francisco-Vancouver-New York-London. Flight QF530 ops by B707. Sydney-Melbourne-Perth-Cocos Islands-Mauritius-Johannesburg. Flight QF631 ops by Super Connie. Timetable Effective 1st July 1971Sydney-Melbourne-Singapore-Bangkok-New Delhi-Bahrain-Athens-Rome-London. Flight QF743 ops by B707. Sydney-Nadi-Honolulu-San Francisco-Vancouver. Flight QF574 ops by B707. Sydney-Nadi-Papeete-Acapulco-Mexico City-Nassau-Bermuda-London. Flight QF580 ops by B707. "Fiesta Route" Timetable Effective 29th March 1975Melbourne-Sydney-Singapore-Kuala Lumpur-Bahrain-Amsterdam-London. Flight QF1 ops by B742. Melbourne-Sydney-Singapore-Kuala Lumpur-Bahrain-Belgrade-London. Flight QF1 ops by B742. Sydney-Melbourne-Perth-Mauritius-Johannesburg. Flight QF641 ops by B707. Melbourne-Sydney-Nadi-Honolulu-San Francisco. Flight QF3 ops by B707/B742. Timetable Effective 4th April 1982Melbourne-Sydney-Singapore-Bahrain-London. Flight QF1 ops by B742. Sydney-Melbourne-Perth-Bombay-Athens-Rome-Amsterdam. Flight QF5 ops by B742. Sydney-Townsville-Honolulu-Los Angeles. Flight QF11 ops by B747/B74M/B747SP. Timetable Effective 1st April 1986Melbourne-Sydney-Singapore-Bahrain-London. Flight QF1 ops by B743. Sydney-Melbourne-Bombay-London. Flight QF9 ops by B742. Sydney-Los Angeles. Flight QF11 ops by B747SP. Timetable Effective 25th March 1990Melbourne-Sydney-Bangkok-London. Flight QF1 ops by B743. Sydney-Melbourne-Singapore-London. Flight QF9 ops by B744. Melbourne-Sydney-Nadi-Honolulu-Los Angeles. Flight QF17 ops by B742. Hobart-Sydney-Auckland. Flight QF33 ops by B763. Timetable Effective 25th March 2001Sydney-Bangkok-London. Flight QF1 ops by B744. "Silk Road Route" Melbourne-Singapore-London. Flight QF9 ops by B744. "Silk Road Route"(Thanks to Luke Cittock for the info)Subs

[Guest Scott Campbell]

Subs,I see we Americas got left out of the direct 744 flights! :-lol

[Guest]

Well, you'll be happy to know that Qantas now has 30 return services a week to North America, including twice daily non stop flights from SYD-LAX, and also MEL-LAX. Those flights connect to 744s operating with Qantas aircraft further on to New York JFK as QF107 :-)Meanwhile currently they operate to 21 return services per week to Heathrow, and daily return services from Frankfurt, Paris, and Rome.Not bad for an airline that started in outback Longreach, flying mail between Brisbane and Darwin :-) It's also the second oldest airline after KLM....So...if you feel like taking a holiday take a flight to LAX then jump on any one of the non stop services and come visit :-)Subs

[Guest]

Brilliant! That's perfect. Thanks very much :)BTW, I think Mexicana have been operating for the same length of time as KLM - that would make Queensland And Northern Territory Air Service (QANTAS ;)) the world's 3rd oldest airline.That's not counting airlines that have changed their name or been created as the result of mergers, eg Empire Airways -> BOAC -> British Airways.

[Guest Scott Campbell]

Subs,You know how much I love your fair land and will be back, and it definitely won't be on United! ;-)

[Guest]

I went on a took several pictures of the VC-10 on a visit to Duxford in England. That is a super plane. I even got some shots of the cockpit whilst there. I did the same for the concorde as well.