Typical 777 Flaps selections

[devgrp 1,233]

Another flap question.  I did not see this in the manual or on other posts:

I am a bit confused on what speed to make the next flap selection.  From what I read in the manual

 

Flaps 1 at 215 kts?, but then flaps 5 at 172 kts?, flaps 15 at 154 kts?, and flaps 30 at 142 kts???

What about 20 and 25?  do you skip these?

 

Also I do not understand the manual about the green flap number.

If I am on an approach and slowing down from 250 kts and I see the little green "1" , Is that the time to go Flaps 1 or the maximum speed for flaps 1, same with the other numbers 5, 15 - I never see a 20 or 25!

 

I am no rookie here, and I make really good landings, but I am simply guessing at the flap selections on the 777.

According to the tutorial, when you see the up indicator, that is when you put the first flap down which is 1 then after that you would dial down the speed for flap 1 then drop it to 5 and so on. Thats how I usually do mine.

Also for flaps 20 and 25 they mentioned that the approach speed are the same for both settings, one just create more lift

[777simmer 117]

I guess SOP differ between airlines.

 

The airline I am familiar with uses 99% of the time flaps 5 for take offs.

The other 1% is flaps 15.

(verry hot days and heavy for example)

 

Landings are like this.

First reduce to minimum clean speed (the green "up" symbol)

Then select flaps 1 and at the same time select the speed that is indicated at the green "1" symbol.

Next select flaps 5 and select flaps 5 maneuvering speed (green "5")

Next (just before GS intercept for a conservative approach) Gear down and flaps 20 and set the speed at flaps 20 maneuvering speed (green "20")

(Yes flaps 15 is skipped unless you need it during overweight landings for example).

Then finally Flaps 30 and set Vref30+5 (with AT engaged that is...there are different speeds to set for manual throttle)

(Yes Flaps 25 is skipped as well here but like I said, it seems different airlines have different SOP.)

 

We always land with flaps 30.

Note: Autoland is only certified at flaps 20 and flaps 30 (not at flaps 25).

 

This (above) is the standard Boeing speed schedule for flap extension.

Those Flap Maneuvering speeds you will be flying at (except Vref30+5) give you a huge safety margin to stall. Just look at how low that stall speed sits (red/black bar at the bottom) or even the MINIMUM Flap Maneuvering speed yellow bar (1.3x stall speed).

 

Maximum flap speed for your current flap setting is indicated by the top black/red bar.

 

The 737 also had a top yellow bar that indicated the maximum speed for the next flap setting. The 777 does not have that anymore.

[lekijiji 15]

Paul, as you know flap speed depends on weight.

The heavier you are the faster your manouvering speed for a given flap selection.

Slowing down from 250kts in an approach, reach the green "UP" speed bug in a clean configuration THEN, in order to slow down further, set your flaps to 1 and set speed down to your green flaps 1 bug.

When the speed is down to the green "1" bug, set flaps 5 and slow down to the green flaps 5 speed bug.

So, this is the concept.

The green speed bugs represent the manouvering speed for your weight, so you can consider that as your max speed for the given flap setting.

 

If you don't see the flaps 20/25 speed reference, is because you have not selected flaps 20 or 25.

From flaps 5 speed, if you set flaps 20, you must see your green flaps 20 speed bug, and then you slow down to that speed.

 

Hope this helped you

[lekijiji 15]

Flaps 20 and 25 speed, are NOT AT ALL the same.

The similarity is betwenn flaps 15 and 20.

And yes, flaps 15 are VERY MUCH used on approach, especially if you need not to accelerate on a GS intercepted a bit far out.

For overweight landings you NEVER use Flaps 15, rather 20 or 25

[paulyg123 135]

It seems 777simmer and lekjiji differ in responses.  777 simmer says to put flaps at 1 when the speed hits the green 1 setting,

 

lekjiji says at the green 1 speed bug, put the flaps to the next setting (5).

and at the 5 green bug, put the flaps at 20. 

 

I just did a landing and at Vref 137,I am at 500 ft and 142  kts, flaps 30, the 25 and 30 green bug are below my 142 speed, so it seems like I am overspeed for flaps 30 and 142 kts??

 

Or did I mis-interpret 777simmer's response.

My scenario is not overweight landings and no crosswind.

 

FYI

The reason I am interested is I made plans to fly the 777 sim on Feb.  The cost is $600/hour - so I want to get it right.

I usually start at LGA RW4 (light 40,000 lbs fuel, 408,000 lbs ZFW) , fly to EWR22L  and to JFK 13 R Canarsie approach, then LGA 31 expressway visual approach.  From a cold dark cockpit, this takes 1 hour.  You think I can land at LGA with a 777-200 at 408,000 lbs

[lekijiji 15]

I vote for lekijiji

777simmer and I are actually in agreement.

Saying the same stuff.

The only disagreement is on the usage of flaps 15, but no big deal

[sosuflyer 30]

It seems 777simmer and lekjiji differ in responses. 777 simmer says to put flaps at 1 when the speed hits the green 1 setting,

 

lekjiji says at the green 1 speed bug, put the flaps to the next setting (5).

and at the 5 green bug, put the flaps at 20.

 

Or did I mis-interpret 777simmer's response.

My scenario is not overweight landings and no crosswind.

 

FYI

The reason I am interested is I made plans to fly the 777 sim on Feb. The cost is $600/hour - so I want to get it right.

I usually start at LGA RW4 (light 40,000 lbs fuel, 408,000 lbs ZFW) , fly to EWR22L and to JFK 13 R Canarsie approach, then LGA 31 expressway visual approach. From a cold dark cockpit, this takes 1 hour. You think I can land at LGA with a 777-200 at 408,000 lbs

 

They are both saying the same thing

[Airbusman330 300]

See what the FCTM or FCOM has to say they should be the final authority.

[777simmer 117]

I vote for lekijiji :D777simmer and I are actually in agreement.

Saying the same stuff.

The only disagreement is on the usage of flaps 15, but no big deal

Yes we are saying the exact same thing, except for flaps 15.

 

The described scenario on my behalf is the standard flap schedule for the 777-200ER.

I have not looked yet if there are differences between that and 777-200LR.

And there realy is no flap setting that is wrong!

Those flap settings are all there for a reason.....if you feel you need them.....use them.

 

We only use flaps 15 and 25 if needed. For example, there are situations where you are coming in too fast and you are already established on the GS. If you are then not slowing down and too fast for the next "normal" flap setting then we use flaps 15 and/or 25 as an intermediate setting. Happens only a few (less than 5) times per year i would guess.

 

Being that the LR is a bit heavier than the ER I could see using flaps 15 to prevent the aircraft from getting faster once established on the GS and already at idle thrust.

 

@Lekijiji

When you say you do not use flaps 15 for overweight situations, do you mean not at all, not even as an intermediate flap setting? Why not?

I meant we use flaps15 in that case as an intermediate flap setting....not as a landing flap setting ofcourse.

It seems 777simmer and lekjiji differ in responses.  777 simmer says to put flaps at 1 when the speed hits the green 1 setting,

 

No, I did not say that.

[lekijiji 15]

I understand we're basically on agreement with everything.

Sorry, I missinterpreted the flaps 15 story, I thought you were saying to land with flaps 15 in overweight...

I probably wouldn't call "intermediate" any flap position because, as you said, when you need them they're there to be used

You'll find yourself using flaps 15 a lot, either for TO and during approach, especially if you flY the 300ER.

For TO, is your performance calculation ruling the game, for approach is technique that differs from pilot to pilot.

Obviously, if you're flying a steep approach or intercept GS from far and you're heavy, you might wanna use flaps 15 instead of speedbrakes, to maintain speed. But again, you have the option to choose.

 

Speaking about techniques, flaps 25 is a very good setting for landing when you're light (with the 777F it happens more often, obviously), so you might wanna consider that too if you guys want to challenge yourselves with a light, and maybe crosswind, landing.

Have fun

[777simmer 117]

Also, see PMDG-777-FCOMv1.pdf on page NP.21.42

 

Flap Extension Schedule

Flaps up,1,5,20,and 25 or 30 for landing.

[paulyg123 135]

Excellent: I understand now!

I really appreciate your knowledge and time in answering this.  You guys are really helpful.

 

Thank you again

 

Paul

[777simmer 117]

I understand we're basically on agreement with everything.

 

Yep :-)

You too, happy landings.

Excellent: I understand now!

I really appreciate your knowledge and time in answering this.  You guys are really helpful.

 

Thank you again

 

Paul

Anytime :-)

[Boomer 1,619]

 

 

Flaps 25 on Landing is used often yeah but so is Flaps 30, I've never personally seen flaps 20 on Landing on the 777.

 

I have read that flaps 25 is used for noise abatement where needed, else flaps 30 is standard for landing.

[EGLL77W 1,508]

I have read that flaps 25 is used for noise abatement where needed, else flaps 30 is standard for landing.

 

Not sure why I said I've never seen a flap 20 landing in the 777... it's a non-normal config Luke!! (Moans at myself). Anyway...

 

That's probably a certain companies procedure. Flaps 25 can have you landing near 160knts with wind correction if you're near MLW. Different companies have some different procedures. For example; United use F25 as a standard pretty much. Correlates with my experience flying with them since I've never actually had a F30 landing whilst onboard a United 777.