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daan_vb

Flying an Approach Help

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Hi guys,

 

Not sure if this is the correct place to post this, but everyone has been most helpful in previous topics so here goes nothing.

 

I'm trying to improve my reading and understanding of STAR and approach charts and having realised that airlines are more or less vectored onto the ILS instead of just programming the FMC.

 

Using EGGP Liverpool as an example I'm now wanting to try and decipher what kind of approach a RW airline would fly. After some study I've noticed a lot of holds in these charts. I've never used holds but as I'm getting more to grips with the NGX I'm wanting to incorporate these into my flying. Here are the charts:

 

 

http://www.ead.eurocontrol.int/eadbasic/pamslight-79E02A49BB92138C3F331082FEF97F2E/7FE5QZZF3FXUS/EN/Charts/AD/AIRAC/EG_AD_2_EGGP_8-1_en_2009-06-04.pdf

 

 

http://www.ead.eurocontrol.int/eadbasic/pamslight-79E02A49BB92138C3F331082FEF97F2E/7FE5QZZF3FXUS/EN/Charts/AD/AIRAC/EG_AD_2_EGGP_7-1_en_2012-05-03.pdf

 

So, lets assume i'm arriving via the TIPOD1B arrival, depending on traffic coming into the airport, would I then be placed in the hold near WALLASEY before being vectored to the ILS 09 approach?

 

After leaving the hold at WALLASEY, and i'm not cleared for the straight in approach, am I correct in thinking I'd then fly over to the LPL hold? Would I be vectored there?

 

And then once leaving the hold would I fly the 281 degree downwind and turn onto the GS at about 7.5nm?

 

Am i understanding all this correct?

 

Many Thanks and apologies if this post doesn't really belong here.

 

Dan

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I think in 95% you will be cleared direct arrival via northwest of WAL VOR, like it's said in left upper corner of approach chart.

So you fly to TIPOD, then WAL D8.3 on WAL radial 299, fly WAL D7 arc and then straight in to ILS.

Sometimes you may be vectored other way too.

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Thanks rsvit!

 

When you say I may be vectored the other way do you mean via REXAM? And lets say in the other 5% it wasn't a direct arrival, do my assumptions ring true?

 

Many Thanks AGAIN for your knowledge and expertise :-)

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So, lets assume i'm arriving via the TIPOD1B arrival, depending on traffic coming into the airport, would I then be placed in the hold near WALLASEY before being vectored to the ILS 09 approach?

 

--> That's possible, yes.

 

After leaving the hold at WALLASEY, and i'm not cleared for the straight in approach, am I correct in thinking I'd then fly over to the LPL hold? Would I be vectored there?

 

--> I don't think you would get a second hold, although is't possible if suddenly weather or runway changes

 

 

And then once leaving the hold would I fly the 281 degree downwind and turn onto the GS at about 7.5nm?

 

--> I guess you would be vectored. If you fly the procedure (which you can ask ATC for training), you leave LPL track 059 for 1 min, make a right turn to track LPL outbound 281 degrees. At 10.7 DME from I-LVR, turn left to intercept the LLZ. At the Final Approach point (at 7.5 DME from I-LVR) you follow the Glidepath.

 

One more thing: altitudes in STAR charts are minimum altitudes.

Altitudes in Final Approach Charts are mandatory (if you are cleared for the procedure off course, not when vectored by ATC)

 

Best Regards,

Bert Van Bulck

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When you say I may be vectored the other way do you mean via REXAM?

 

No. I meant it can be direct from TIPOD or WAL D8.3 without flying an arc.

It's more possible that you will get vectors from REXAM if your STAR is named KEGUN.

 

And lets say in the other 5% it wasn't a direct arrival, do my assumptions ring true?

 

Yes. And you will be vectored from one hold to straight in approach from WAL or fly procedure turn if you hold at LPL.

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Thanks guys! I understand now.

 

One last thing, is the reason the arc from WAL D8.7 there to avoid those large birds on the Hilbre Islands?

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not seen that before.

 

Text pages in both Jepp/AIP(incl FAA) are seriously under-appreciated in simming community :)

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Thanks guys! I understand now.

 

One last thing, is the reason the arc from WAL D8.7 there to avoid those large birds on the Hilbre Islands?

 

I've read the answer about the birds and Noise Abatement, but maybe it's to avoid a conflict with traffic flying westbound from LPL?

 

Bert Van Bulck

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Thanks, Dan, for starting this thread. Just what I was after as I fly the same route into EGGP but not as in depth as you do. I just followed the STAR and routing right down to the final approach. Now, thanks to this thread, I can be a bit more adventurous.

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Text pages in both Jepp/AIP(incl FAA) are seriously under-appreciated in simming community :)

 

No pictures. Ever note how many people RTFM? Few. Most go to YouTube. Why? Pictures.

 

Sad state of the generations.

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Thanks, Dan, for starting this thread. Just what I was after as I fly the same route into EGGP but not as in depth as you do. I just followed the STAR and routing right down to the final approach. Now, thanks to this thread, I can be a bit more adventurous.

 

Thats what I'm doing at the moment, but i'm trying to go a bit more indepth and "real world" as I get more to grips with the NGX. Its lots of fun and i'm learning a lot!

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Text pages in both Jepp/AIP(incl FAA) are seriously under-appreciated in simming community :)

Charts an seriously under-appreicated in the simming community, period.

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I dont know Johan. Around where I am, most everybody has Jepps, although rarely people can read and use all the info there is, and most nobody has, or uses text briefing pages...

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I dont know Johan. Around where I am, most everybody has Jepps, although rarely people can read and use all the info there is, and most nobody has, or uses text briefing pages...

 

Agreed. Half of them don't realize that a good portion of the info is on the narrative pages.

 

As an example, sit on the ramp when I'm controlling IAD one day and I'll give a proper clearance (not VATSIMized to solve the issue of people not reading the narrative). Just sit there and wait for the person to ask the initial altitude or frequency because they never bothered to look at the chart for the approach they filed.

 

The Capital 8 departure lists the following on its narrative:

"Maintain 3000, expect clearance to filed altitude/flight level 10 minutes after departure."

 

Surprisingly the graphic lists the departure frequencies by fix and people will still mess it up.

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