[fontsize=2]----- BIG FIGHT TONIGHT! -----Welcome one and all to the Services And Information Fight Of The Century!In this corner... Bill Gates of the MS Bottomless Wealth Corporation! The Champion of the Capitalists!In the other corner.. Richard Stallman of the GNU Foundation. The People's Hero Of Free Information and Software!When the bell rings I want to see a clean fight! No eye-gouging, biting, or hair pulling!Lol... :-lolMan, I don't think I've ever seen so much mud-slinging going on on here before. Or at least that's the 'feeling' I have gotten from some of the stuff in here. Everyone has their opinion, which they are entitled to of course. It's very interesting to see how emotional people can be when voicing their opinion in order to try and make sure it is heard and understood. But still, all the mud-slinging. Whew! Regardless, I have found this thread to be an enjoyable and interesting read and am glad to see it has not been locked. :-coolI just want to say I think the best post I've seen in here so far is one that I consider to be very cool-headed, and was put very simply and succinctly..."I really don't get the problem. The FSGS guys seem to have no policy saying that you must keep the tweaks to yourself.You kind of are misleading with your quote from Ryan and the others: they were saying that because FSGS is a business, they don't want to hurt that business by sharing what FSGS did to there computers. (Thats what I gathered anyway) Gentlemen, there is nothing wrong with sharing the information, or saying you will keep it to yourself.-F"Way to go Fred! But I think there might possibly one error in your statement. Somewhere I thought I saw, that at a certain point, FSGS asks that if they are going to continue with the system unification that you keep the what happens in the remainder of the session between you and them. In other words, that you do not go out and give away what tweaks they have you do. I could however be wrong about this.Cheers, :-outtaJim

Elrond, during the course of this discussion, you've said the following (and I apologize for using your words this way... I realize that you responded to a lot of comments on many sides):<><>I trust that you see the irony here. You don't want me to question your motives because I "don't know (you) from adam". But you seem to think you know what FSGS does, even though you don't know them from... You get the point. The fact is that FSGS' privacy stipulation doesn't restrict the free flow of any information that has been going around in these forums because that's not what their service is about. FSGS' clients can discuss yesterday's, today's, or tomorrow's fad till the cows come home... no problem. The things that they do just aren't, and haven't been, discussed here.There's more irony at work in this thread as well. Isn't it interesting that the only people who have a problem with this are those who haven't utilized FSGS' services? A 100 percent customer satisfaction record has to be the envy of anyone who provides a quality service, including such respected groups as PMDG, Flight1, RealAir, Captain Sim, and (dare I say it?) MicroSoft. In a way, this discussion may well have served to promote FSGS' business, though that was clearly not your intent.In any event, although I disagree with most of what you've said here, I respect you for maintaining your dignity in a heated discussion.Best Regards,Ken

"Excellent! And take your sarcasm with you!"And just what was this you wrote: "I agree, this thread is a crock"Seems to most here that is probably the most sarcastic thing written in this thread.Greg

I also find this thread to be disturbing.Entire eductational institutions are built on someone packaging events, theories, postulations, and ideas together, putting them into a syllabus, and then giving a certificate of completion.And despite what some have claimed, this thread has boiled down to an attack of either A) FSGS and it's "packaging of public information" for a fee or:( The reluctance of FSGS clients from just posting a thread that outlines each and every bit of information they got and putting it on the web.For one, I don't know how FSGS works, but if it is phone support, I imagine it is quite interactive. I do not know if FSGS provides a hard copy of the user's "configuration profile" so that the user can re-adjust his system in case of a failure or not.If they do not, then some folks here are angry because some one didn't record their call or transcribe all that was taking place?If I am studying for my MCSE, am I allowed to walk into a private business and "survey" an MCSE class? Am I entitled to the class material (even though all of it is aviailable freely through Microsoft)? The entire reason we pay for "service" is for convenience. And excuse me if I do not wish to devalue my service by giving everyone else who feels "entitled" to it, the same thing I paid for, for free.I bought Ultimate Traffic, because, it, like a service, was a repackaging of mainly freeware materials into a turnkey solution.I do not believe that FSGS is the next coming of the apocalypse nor do I feel that someone asking for help will simply be "given a link to FSGS".But to indirectly attack a company, or it's clients for their decision to disclose or not disclose information is wrong. I am happy to say that I have the freedom of speech, and the freedom of silence. And I am dismayed at anyone who tries to take either away from me.It is pretty hypocritical when we see the same people who decry when someone inadvertently give away someone elses "copyrighted" gauge, as piracy and "staling from the mouths of developers" and yet feels that FSGS and their clients should be totally open source about their information. I suppose you didn't feel you needed to pay for that encyclopedia set either....After all, it's all free information....

>Seems to most here that is probably the most sarcastic thing>written in this thread.No, just to you. If you think that it is "most" than you seriously should take your own advice and re-read the thread...AGAIN. And while you're at it, look up the words "sarcasm" and "opinion," then you can get back to me.And you accused ME of knowing "more than anybody?" Take a good look at yourself, Pal. You don't impress me. Ok, THERE is some sarcasm. Understand the difference now?

Hi Ken,I believe Elrond (and Dick) have no problems with the service FS-GS offers. This thread wasn't started to slam those folks for exercising their free enterprise rights. The concern is that some disagree with the premise that such companies would try to bind the customer to not discussing methodologies that are freely available to all via the Internet and other avenues. This sort of thinking can be quite constrictive to the free enterprise system we all value so much, including FS-GS.While I disagree with FS-GS's request that such methodologies are "theirs" (by binding in any way their customers to not discussing the methods they use) I certainly respect their customer's making the choice to protect them. You point out that FS-GS has a "100% customer satisfaction record". And, yes, this is certainly envious. But that doesn't mean FS-GS's binding their customers is neccessarily good for the hobby, and indeed free enterprise itself.While I applaud FS-GS for having so many passionate customers, as a businessman I nevertheless see a problem with their business model: If what they do were so unique they wouldn't have to bind their customers. In the end I fear this alone will be their single most relevant shortcoming. Because someone, sometime, somewhere will divulge their methods. And that will be costly to FS-GS, who certainly does have a place in this hobby.Regards,Greg

"For one, I don't know how FSGS works, but if it is phone support, I imagine it is quite interactive."It's either phone support or over MS Messenger with a microphone, which is totally free.

"If I am studying for my MCSE, am I allowed to walk into a private business and "survey" an MCSE class? Am I entitled to the class material (even though all of it is aviailable freely through Microsoft)?"I don't think anybody would argue with your point here, Will. But (you knew this was coming, huh?) let's take this even further. After you had paid your money, dutifully attended the classes offered by this service company, studied hard to learn their syllabus, and gained your diploma from them, would you then allow yourself to be restricted from willfully sharing the knowledge you gained from them with anyone of your choosing? Would you willingly accept this school binding you from helping someone in an open and public forum on the Internet if you so chose? Would you accept not being able to help a freind or likable neighbor just because this school had bound you from divulging their methods?And therein lies the concern of some of the posters in this thread.Cheers,Greg

Hi Ken,>The fact is that FSGS' privacy stipulation doesn't restrict the free flow of any information that has been going around in these forums because that's not what their service is about.In a way, this discussion may well have served to promote FSGS' business, though that was clearly not your intent.http://www.hifisim.com/images/as2betateam.jpg

Hey Ryan, Glad MIcheal got ya runnin At least now you see why myself,CFII MIke,George etal were so enthusiastic about telling everyone...irregardless of the flamewar and now, you also understand what we meant as far explaining to everyone what was done to OUR system...keyword...OUR SYSTEMS. I really had no doubts you would be happy with the outcome Sorry, that others have such a negative attitude towards this service and those of us very satisfied with the service. Just as a little note of history; the main person that does the unification process....USED TO POST ON FORUMS...FREELY. However, due to so many folks basically telling him he didn't have a clue what he was talking about..he figured if he was going to have to take a bunch of crap from people...he created FS-GS. He even has 6 machines running at the same time to test just about every scenery,aircraft and other programs and add ons that are made, so he knows just about every addon you may have in your system..to help with unification on YOUR machine. Best,Dave>Guys,>>I just finished the session with Michael/FS-GS and suffice it>to say I am more than impressed. I'm going to take my time in>writing a full review of the experience but here's the end>result - FS2004, PMDG 737-800 VC/CAB, 100% Ultimate Traffic at>KPHX, building storms weather theme, all siders, (yes>including weather) to the right, 1280X1024X32, 6X Antialising,>16X Anisotropic Filtering, and this is the best I've ever seen>FS run. Ever. It is super smooth - no stutters, no blurred>textures, nada and my video card image quality settings are>now DOUBLE what they were before. I've been on this forum for>years and you all know I wouldn't lie about this - afterall I>was skeptical myself going into this. The difference is>really really noticable from what it was before.>>Elrond and rhumbaflappy,>>I *REALLY* resent your insinuations that anyone who would use>the FS-GS service is somehow less of a computer enthusiast or>has less knowlege than people such as yourselves. "That's the>price for inadequacy, laziness, or ignorance." - that's one of>the most BS statements I've ever read on these forums. I've>been building my owns systems since the 8th grade, I actually>perform computer tech work as a job, and I pride myself on>knowing all I can about Windows, my hardware, and the ways to>optimize my gaming experiences. With all the years I've spent>doing so, there were still MANY things that happened during my>session this morning that I DID NOT KNOW ABOUT! I've tried>all the tweaks suggested on these forums - almost none of>those were actually done today. Did I already know about some>of the things that were done? Of course, I'm sure a lot of us>do. What made this different was the comprehensive way that>each action complements the others in a way that is>specifically designed to get FS and other games running as>smoothly as possible. This service was NOT a bunch of tweaks>from these forums thrown together into one big mess and>applied. It is a carefully reasoned out list of steps>tailored to MY machine - if any of you were to do the service>you might have any number of those steps removed or other ones>added.>>As for the subject of giving away what specific actions took>place during the service, again, I'm going to tell you that I>believe it would be HIGHLY unethical to do so, especially now>upon seeing how impressive the results are. Michael and his>partners at FS-GS spent an incredible amount of time coming up>with a very organized and custom tailored method for providing>this service - for their clients to turn around and post the>most important information for free would undermine their>entire business. Of course FS-GS doesn't "own" ideas or tweak>methods, but they do have an intellectual property right over>the service itself and the way they add everything together to>create the final result. They developed their system, and as>such it is not mine nor anyone else's right to give that>system away for free. All I can tell you is that it works and>I highly recommend giving it a try.

Hi Will,>The entire reason we pay for "service" is for convenience. And excuse me if I do not wish to devalue my service by giving everyone else who feels "entitled" to it, the same thing I paid for, for free.I bought Ultimate Traffic, because, it, like a service, was a repackaging of mainly freeware materials into a turnkey solution.But to indirectly attack a company, or it's clients for their decision to disclose or not disclose information is wrong. I am happy to say that I have the freedom of speech, and the freedom of silence. And I am dismayed at anyone who tries to take either away from me.It is pretty hypocritical when we see the same people who decry when someone inadvertently give away someone elses "copyrighted" gauge, as piracy and "staling from the mouths of developers" and yet feels that FSGS and their clients should be totally open source about their information.http://www.hifisim.com/images/as2betateam.jpg

Hey Elrond, just want to interject a little something regarding the time issue...and so called hand holding. Most, of the time expended in the beginning; is to unscrew up your system from all the so called expert tweaks the individual has done to their systems... at least then you have a stable starting place. Finally, and this has been said ad nauseum....the time frame is so long because your entire system is checked, adjusted...some other programs may have to be un/installed..not too mention some reboots; and numerous flightsim load ups to test things. But, the BOTTOM LINE...everything done to OUR systems..IS for OUR system setups...NO BODY elses. So, even if we went through a lot of the stuff...it very well may NOT WORK on someone elses machine...then we have to listen to a bunch of; you screwed up my machine BS....no Thank You! So, there IS a reason we don't go through procedures..BECAUSE those procedures were for OUR machines and no body elses.Best,Dave>Hi David,>>But what you state is exactly the problem: there ARE no>"secrets". See? Even your confused by what they are>selling.>>FSGS is selling nothing but this: time. From reports it seems>to be an average of 4 hours of hand holding for 60 dollars,>thus they value their time at $15 per hour. They are NOT>selling secrets - simply their time.>>The honorable and ethical thing is for the free flow of good>tips and ideas to remain exactly that: free. All, or at the>very least the vast majority of the ideas and tweaks FSGS>provides is "borrowed" from the community already... Its not>NEW information, its pre-packaged existing information take>from the community and the internet at large. The money>charged is for the time walking you through implementing those>tips.>>I hope you see the difference now. When it comes down to it,>the honorable and ethical thing would be for FSGS to spell out>exactly what they provide - BEFORE they provide it. It would>avoid confusion such as yours and whats rampant in the>previous thread right from the start.>>Take care,>>Elrond

"Understand the difference now?"Well, Pal, I certainly understand that objectivity and adult intraction is something you've yet to find. Maybe someday you will.But, hey, look on the bright side... folks who have read your postings here will remember you... for your crock.

Hi Person Named After A Dutch City Famous For Its Cheese,it appears to me that you have missed the point of the original post, which questions the legitimacy of attempting to claim proprietary rights for a troubleshooting method by way of IP tools other than trademark, or the perception of existence of such protection.Cheers,Gosta.http://www.hifisim.com/images/as2betateam.jpg

Okay, this thread has seen the last of daylight. It is moving south real quick and we'll lock it up.