My opinion is.........

 

That the sim can do quite a good job in providing the sensations of landing. But that's based on feelings that a "pilot's" brain can transfer

to the sim to fill in the gaps. I get sensations of yaw, power to weight, and knowing when to align the airplane with the runway centerline

with rudder pedals. With good simulated aircraft, I really do enjoy sim landings.

 

As to the "fall through the flare" feeling, that can happen in real life with a C/S prop acting as a brake, they (constant speed props) don't seem well simulated. This is where you flare at the exact moment for power off landings, or use a bit of power in the flare. In other words.......no float, and little sensation of ground effect.

 

Since I know, that the brain can provide sensations of "feel" and fill in the gaps.........to make landings work like landings, I'm not entirely convinced

that using a sim is counter productive. Perhaps it would help to have a pilot watch for mistakes. However, as I said previously, it's a case of a pilot's mind filling in the gaps, which won't hold true for someone who hasn't experienced it.

 

I also pull the viewpoint quite a ways back, to allow peripheral vision from the sides. Doing so, adds to the yaw effect.

 

L.Adamson

The fact Zane perfectly pointed out is the main issue with simulators. The way the Trim works in simulators affects the everything. I never thought about it, but of course that's the reason you can't do a stick full back landing in FS like you should in RL, the Trim changes the primary surface position in FS, so even with stick full back it doesn't mean you have your elevator with full deflection, so the aircraft lands before you let it do.

 

That is enough reason for me to not use a simulator for basic maneuver training. I will keep it for fun until I can use it for IFR training!

 

Thank you guys for the excellent discussion, really helped me a lot

Woof... ok.. more than I bargained for there... (and it's just "Rob" Dr. Zane... the G.O. is a joke thingy)

 

I already pointed out flying at the edge of the flight envelope in my original answer.

 

Yes... but what did it mean... I can properly set up slow flight... so what is your point? However, not to worry... you explained further in your fourth sentence.

 

First off the way the sim handles trim is not realistic at all but a compromise based on the controller generally being used by most simmers.

 

What? Last time I flew FSX, the trim worked as it is supposed to in a "normal" situation. Btw... the Joystick I use has no springs (at least that I am aware of).

 

A real aircraft when flown at low airspeeds, high angles of attack and cross control can enter an uncontrollable situation that takes losing a few thousand feet of altitude to regain control if regaining control is at all possible (why spins are not allowed in many aircraft).

 

Just curious as to the aircraft you refer to after a cross-control stall will "lose a few thousand feet of altitude".

 

Btw, with respect, spin approval is not based on altitude loss (see FAR 23.221). You might be interested in knowing that one of the requirements for "Normal Category" spin approval is:

• "It must be impossible to obtain unrecoverable spins with any use of the flight or engine power controls either at the entry into or during the spin;"
  

In the sim you can quickly go to full deflection on the controls and do all kinds of crazy cross control stuff that would probably seperate a wing or the empannage from a real aircraft. A simmer that doesn't know or understand this

 

I fully agree here... there is no g sensation, or any sensation for that matter... (partly why I roll my eyes with the notion of a person being a "serious simmer" what the heck does that mean except you happen to spend a gazillion dollars on simming).

 

But what about a person like Alec... I bet his instructor keeps a keen eye for this kind of monkey business and has thoroughly explained the importance and the why nots and how nots about controls -> abuse of. If he acts like he's flying a sim (in the sense of control / engine abuse) not giving his Flight Training the proper respect and attitude, he won't last long.

 

When it comes to landing you 've got to take those eye/hand coordination skills learned... with enough runway left to safely come to a stop or pull off.

 

Something similar takes place (or can) with simming and I believe a positive transference of learning can take place.

 

The sim does very little to prepare you for this

 

I disagree here from the aspect of... if you fly a wide variety of planes e.g. in FSX, you begin to understand the various nuances in performance and handling characteristics. I am not saying if you master an FSX aircraft you suddenly become qualified to solo that same make/model. I am saying there can be (emphasis on "can be") a transference of learning... that... each plane is different, handles differently... requires time and training to be proficient etc...

 

The sim does very little to prepare you for this and while some good developers have worked to make some of these aspects more realistic they work much better to fill the gaps for someone experienced with the real thing than to teach a skill to someone that has never experienced it

 

In general... I disagree... for specific aircraft... ok I can buy (some) of that. But my argument (not that I even had an argument to begin with) is that the sim can be useful IF used in the appropriate manner i.e. within the constraints of proper flying technique. That there is some benefit procedurally etc.

 

Btw thanks for taking the time to point out the failings of a sim. I appreciate your perspective.

 

Not sure exactly how much I like the bike analogy... I have to think about that... I have taught an adult to ride a bike... and I have instructed in all aircraft you mention (and then some) except the Mooney (just a handful of hours in those). But point taken... you have to get out there and be succesful at doing it before you can do it (what an observation!).

 

That the sim can do quite a good job in providing the sensations of landing. But that's based on feelings that a "pilot's" brain can transfer to the sim to fill in the gaps. I get sensations of yaw, power to weight, and knowing when to align the airplane with the runway centerline with rudder pedals. With good simulated aircraft, I really do enjoy sim landings.

 

+1 Larry... I like that statement. And same here... good aircraft can mean some great enjoyment. And I still believe you get worthwhile visual cues.

 

As to the "fall through the flare" feeling, that can happen in real life with a C/S prop acting as a brake, they (constant speed props) don't seem well simulated.

 

Yes sure... I believe we all agree there... there can be a number of things that falls thru the cracks on a sim-game such as FS9 / FSX. But for the money... not have bad, eh? Those of us fortunate enough to have experienced flight can chime in on such things. I have huge bone to pick with the twins for Vmc demo (would love to try the MilViz Baron) but that does not mean one cannot practice the procedural setup or recovery... and doing this type of practice can lower workload in the plane (again if done correctly).

 

-Rob

CFI / CFII / MEI / MEII / A&P

 

Btw Alec... if your posts are indicative of the approach you take to / attitude toward your actual flight training... you are the kind of student I would be grateful to instruct.

The fact Zane perfectly pointed out is the main issue with simulators. The way the Trim works in simulators affects the everything. I never thought about it, but of course that's the reason you can't do a stick full back landing in FS like you should in RL, the Trim changes the primary surface position in FS, so even with stick full back it doesn't mean you have your elevator with full deflection, so the aircraft lands before you let it do.

 

My FSX/FS9/X-Plane trim is used just like I had it in my Van's RV. It's an electric hatswitch trim on the stick. Even though it's done different with these desktop sims, the effect is still the same. It's made no difference in the ability to land correctly. Of course, trim will feel different, since I have a Saitek

X52 joystick with a light spring. It's just as case of relaxing load on the stick, and seeing the aircraft remain close to neutral movement, when stick pressure is released. It becomes as common as using real trim control. Just not quite as easy, though. Real planes DO trim easier! At least most of the time.

Your first time in real life jumping from a Cessna 172 with very very docile characteristics and flying a Piper Arrow you will be surprised at just how much faster things happen when you're not traveling that much faster and also when you get that wing on the Arrow down below 80 knots it gets really sluggish and will mush before doing what you want it to. The landing position puts you closer to the runway and the low wing responds differently to ground effect so you'll find yourself becoming much more skilled at speed control in the pattern and flaring technique.

 

We need to point out why. The Arrow, with it's retract landing gear, larger engine, and constant speed prop, is heavier than the Archer or Warrior. The airframe is about the same. The Arrow with it's constant speed prop, acts as an airbrake, when slowed on approach. I was taught to use a bit of power in the flare, to keep the Arrow's nose up. Otherwise, airspeed will bleed very quickly, and you will certainly fall those last few feet to the runway. My RV, with a constant speed prop is the same. The choices are a steep power off approach, with a flare at the exact moment..........or use a bit of power through the flare. Either method is acceptable, as some passengers don't like steep elevator approaches. I always knew, that at 60 kias, the RV better just be inches off the runway. Other wise, the airspeed drops off faster than you can think about it. It's nothing like a Cessna 172, which just gently floats along in ground effect, if airspeed is too high. To me, ground effect doesn't exist with the RV. Note: fixed pitch RVs float too, and require long speed reductions before getting into the pattern. I can litterly turn base at 120 kias, and see 70 kias over the fence on a short approach. That's what a C/S prop can do for you. Do desktop sims simulated this? Not very well.

 

L.Adamson

My FSX/FS9/X-Plane trim is used just like I had it in my Van's RV. It's an electric hatswitch trim on the stick. Even though it's done different with these desktop sims, the effect is still the same. It's made no difference in the ability to land correctly.

 

I have to +1 this also Alec... I do not understand this "issue" Dr. Zane describes. You are going to trim to neutal force during the approach and usually leave it at that. I don't have a yoke to be able to run it out and stick it in my lap as wheels make contact... but I can be apply a good bit of force (comparatively speaking to normal force input) when I really want to do a proper nose-high stalled landing in a e.g. C172.

 

Your instructor would be derelict not to teach you the hazards of inappropriate trim use in the landing pattern...

I understand that If you trim the aircraft for full Trim Up, in real life it would be hard to keep the elevator neutral for level flight, very hard probably, but if you were able to do it , your aircraft would fly level.

 

In FS, doing the same thing, the aircraft would go nose up like crazy with your joystick neutral, and you would require full stick forward to mantain level flight, so the fact is that you just lost half of your control surface authority, since it will no longer be able to make the aircraft go nose down, only neutral at best. In real life it would require very high force if flying at a high speed, not maybe not if flying slow flight, but you would still have full authority over your control surface.

 

Am I wrong? Correct me if I am please

I understand that If you trim the aircraft for full Trim Up, in real life it would be hard to keep the elevator neutral for level flight, very hard probably, but if you were able to do it , your aircraft would fly level.

 

In FS, doing the same thing, the aircraft would go nose up like crazy with your joystick neutral, and you would require full stick forward to mantain level flight, so the fact is that you just lost half of your control surface authority, since it will no longer be able to make the aircraft go nose down, only neutral at best. In real life it would require very high force if flying at a high speed, not maybe not if flying slow flight, but you would still have full authority over your control surface.

 

Am I wrong? Correct me if I am please

 

You don't need to worry about the joysticks exact neutral location. Just look at the screen, and see that the airplane is flying the trimmed attitude required (climb, cruise, descend) when the stick is neutralized by the spring. It's that spring, and what you see on the screen, that provides a sensation of airloads on the flying surface. The mind CAN play games in regards to movement. I often use the example of a car, moving slightly ahead of your's at a stop light. You feel that you're moving backwards, and slam on the brakes. In reality, you didn't move at all........but you sure feel it. Good sim planes can somewhat do the same, through sight, and that spring.

Guys... Larry and Rob specifically. We are pilots and have experience so we have the motor training to call on when using the simulation so we can "fill in the gaps" so to speak. For a noobie this is not the case and when I make comments regarding this it comes from my work experience with Applied Kinesiology retraining motor patterns after injury. If you've ever had the opportunity to work with a shuttle balance in physical therapy (look it up if you don't know what I'm talking about) most people will have difficulty balancing with both feet the first time they step onto one but you can actually time how long the brain will take to train a motor pathway and start to dampen out the movement and then control it... it's around 45 seconds regardless of sex and to a certain extent age. Now take someone that has done training on one of these and they can armchair rehearse it (this technique was used with the Apollo astronauts for motor training and later with Olympic athletes) or even better yet use computer simulations to augment that motor memory, BUT the person doing that work has the original physical experience and learned motor behaviour to call on and use. You (Larry and Rob and other pilots) have that motor memory to call on with the sim so we, whether we know it or not, "fill in those gaps" and the experience becomes much more real for us. IMO (and I won't be humble here) someone that doesn't have that experience to call on can learn behaviours that would not fare well in a real aircraft cause the sim wasn't programmed to respond correctly to that kind of input.

 

Regarding the trim issue you need to understand the SDK and how Microsoft has been doing this from day one well enough to understand that they are doing the best they can given what they are working with. The control inputs in MSFS have a set range of operation that unlike a real aircraft's moving surface will change with trim position so full deflection with full up trim vs full deflection with full down trim cover a completely different range of motion. This causes the sim to respond in an unrealistic fashion when we approach that end range of travel. There was some work work done towards this during the era when force feedback joysticks were in their hayday and an add on program would attempt to intercept those control inputs and trim data to come up with a solution that gave full travel authority and would balance input force to simulate the way a real trim gets used. Yes, the sim "feels" (?) about right near center and the trim can be used to set a given speed for a given power setting and rate of descent or climb even if it's zero but at end range it nowhere near duplicates the force the actual empannage would exert.

 

I took spin training during my private certification in the mid 80's and I've discussed spins with Clay Lacey who lost it in the Piper Arapahoe during testing in the early 70's... I'd imagine I've got a pretty clear picture in my head on what constitutes a spin legal/capable aircraft and what doesn't.

 

We're actually probably closer to agreeing on what each of us is saying than disagreeing, it's just the degree and angle we are viewing it that exposes our differences.

I understand that If you trim the aircraft for full Trim Up, in real life it would be hard to keep the elevator neutral for level flight, very hard probably, but if you were able to do it , your aircraft would fly level.

 

In FS, doing the same thing, the aircraft would go nose up like crazy with your joystick neutral, and you would require full stick forward to mantain level flight, so the fact is that you just lost half of your control surface authority, since it will no longer be able to make the aircraft go nose down, only neutral at best. In real life it would require very high force if flying at a high speed, not maybe not if flying slow flight, but you would still have full authority over your control surface.

 

Am I wrong? Correct me if I am please

 

100% exactly, most FSX users actually don't know that, and believe FSX trim behaves the same way that it does in RL.

 

I've never read anyone mentioning this issue on avsim, other than zfehr.

 

 

Marco

Oh it's been mentioned, I just think that most flight simmers who don't fly for real probably are not hugely familiar with how it all works in terms of the controls moving and how much easier that makes matters. How FS does it is in fact why it is appallingly hard in FS to trim things neutral in comparison to real life, where it generally takes mere seconds to get the thing trimmed pretty much spot on in most aeroplanes for real. In fact, on several aircraft I've flown, you could even see where the correct trim setting was for certain phases of flight, because the paint was worn off the trimming control in such a way that it was obvious where to put it LOL, although that is unlikely to be the case with the trim wheel in your average Cessna.

 

I presume that a force feedback stick might possibly make it easier to emulate real life trimming to some degree, if the FF motors could permanently deflect the stick a little bit, but it's so long since I've had a FF stick that I'm not sure what level of sophistication they are up to these days.

 

In any case, as noted by others on this thread in relation to broader matters, flight sims like FS are such that when you know the real thing, it is possible to mentally 'tune out' shortcomings in the realism and take benefit from plusses, to the extent that they can be useful for practicing real world stuff very well when you do that. Whereas imagining that they will fully prepare you for the real thing if you have no experience of it, makes that something which you could not do, although to be fair, if even a sim pilot is aware of the aerodynamic theories behind what they are doing, I should imagine they'd be reasonably okay providing they 'felt their way' cautiously enough. Neverthelessm again I agree that the chances are that someone who only flew sims previously, would probably not pull off a perfect greaser on their first try in the real thing, although I do maintain that a reasonably good simmer could almost certainly get an aeroplane up around and back down in one piece.

 

So, to get back on topic, i.e. on things which help real world training that you can do in a sim, I would say that Track IR was certainly another one which helps, since it keeps you looking about, which is what you should be doing when in a busy training circuit. Although the head movements are different for sure, I should imagine the mental drill you could instill in yourself by using it would probably help, for example, if you do the 'looking to the end of the runway when you flare' with Track IR in a sim often enough, it would probably become natural to do that in the real thing, and if you got into the habit of looking in the direction of a turn before initiating that turn using Track IR, whereby you have to turn your head a little, it would also probably make that a habit, and that is certainly a good habit to have when flying VFR.

 

Al

 

100% exactly, most FSX users actually don't know that, and believe FSX trim behaves the same way that it does in RL.

 

I've never read anyone mentioning this issue on avsim, other than zfehr.

 

 

Marco

 

And, why does this matter? R/C aircraft use the trim controls to move the main control surface servos.........no tabs. The Mooney moves the complete tail section to change horizontal stab/elevator position......no tab. Some airplanes use combinations of bias springs. Planes have used tabs to move the complete aileron, instead of a direct connection. So what's the issue? Trim is used to relieve stick/yoke pressure, and FSX does just that. I don't believe that I'll be using FSX or X-Plane to simulate elevator forces with runaway trim...........anytime soon; let alone rely on the measured forces as being fact, in comparison to a real airplane.

 

L.Adamson

LAdamson

 

The problem I think is that you're trimmed for like 80mph approach glide with engine at 1500RPM. It doesn't matter if the trim moves the whole surface deflection or not, because the center of your joystick is trimmed to mantain that AoA. Ok. The problem starts when you break the glide and starts flaring, your airspeed will problably go from 80MPH to life 55MPH before touchdown. You would of course not trim in the middle of the Flare, instead you would start bringing the Joystick back until you're settled to the ground.

 

The aircraft being out of Trim in FS is probably when things starts going bad with this technique of moving the whole surface instead of just mantaining the current position, because when you're full deflection with the elevator out of trim in FS, it's probably not the same aerodinamical effect than the full elevator in a real aircraft, that's why I think it's so hard to do those full stick back landings in FS, you probably have less elevator authority in FS because you'r eout of trim than in RL, so you just can't keep the nose up enough to make it do a full stall landing.

 

Chock

 

 

I also don't have an idea why they stopped making force feedback joysticks, and the simming community also seems no longer interested in them. People who like to use Racing Simulators would never go back to using a wheel without FFB motor after using one with it, it's just another world when you feel your car in your hands, and Flying is no different, maybe we have to blame developers who didn't spend enough time making that work correctly, and then people stopped buying these products.

Ditto

While some simmers have a problem using a joystick with a control yoke aircraft I sim exclusively with my ancient MS Forcefeedback joystick using FS Force II by Dirks SW. This excellent program in conjunction with a FFB joystick provides more realistic trim function and control forces that vary with airspeed unlike a spring centered joystick or yoke. I too fail to understand why FFB isn't more prominent in flight simulation.