Exclamation of the day...

[kentoo 0]

The PC pilot hasn't the Physical sensations of flying... an important thing especially when approaching stall speed or when pulling high G force. There is no instructor hounding you to make precision turns with no loss or gain in altitude... That was a tough one for me. These and many other common mistakes that a student pilot makes are not corrected.. like being aware of airport turbulence caused by aircraft and helicopters.... A lesson I learned trying to land right after a sikorsky helicopter ... I would have been fine had I landed beyond where the chopper had landed .. but I didn't .. I touched down before the point where the chopper landed and ran into his vortices... airborn again was the result.. nose down a little power and a second landing further down the runway. These are not learned from PC flying unless you intentionally set out to simulate them.

[raymar 969]

I was invited over to see a 'high end' flight simulator in action in Austin last Christmas. It was a private house with a small den with a simulator chair built for auto racing simulation that had been converted to a 'tank battle' simulation of sorts. Lots of noise and hiding behind hills. He also had three wide screen monitors set up for flight simulation across the room. The sim wasn't running very well that day, something to do with calibration. I asked if he had tried FSX and the answer was it was to 'buggy'. He was using Wings of Prey with a Saitek yoke and pedals, except all the controls were backwards. I mean really backward, Pull back on the yoke and the nose dives, kinda of backwards and to increase power he pulls the throttle back. Wow.

 

I casually mentioned that it appears that you have all the controls backwards. He stated, what difference does that make? I said none, I guess. Have a nice day.

 

This is a sim pilot in action.

 

Ray

[GHarrall 494]

I was invited over to see a 'high end' flight simulator in action in Austin last Christmas. It was a private house with a small den with a simulator chair built for auto racing simulation that had been converted to a 'tank battle' simulation of sorts. Lots of noise and hiding behind hills. He also had three wide screen monitors set up for flight simulation across the room. The sim wasn't running very well that day, something to do with calibration. I asked if he had tried FSX and the answer was it was to 'buggy'. He was using Wings of Prey with a Saitek yoke and pedals, except all the controls were backwards. I mean really backward, Pull back on the yoke and the nose dives, kinda of backwards and to increase power he pulls the throttle back. Wow.

 

I casually mentioned that it appears that you have all the controls backwards. He stated, what difference does that make? I said none, I guess. Have a nice day.

 

This is a sim pilot in action.

 

Ray

 

Ahhh, so THIS is the 'joe public' MS want to sell Flight goodies to!

[raymar 969]

Ahhh, so THIS is the 'joe public' MS want to sell Flight goodies to!

 

Scary, isn't it. And this guy was an adult, in age and size.

 

Ray

[jcomm 5,890]

As I posted a few posts above, my experience with a fs9-based flightsim, with 120º visuals, but also with Frasca, Alsim and Elite, did all fall way off of my expectations, although I agree that for procedural, ifr, mcc trainning they are ok - they have to, since they're certified for that poupose....

 

The LevelD sim at Lisbon TAP trainning center was a great experience, but we're talking about a multi-million sim...

 

What I was trying to point out in my original post was that the visuals, the weather effects, and even the flight dynamics provided by MS FLIGHT, give a simmer a very close to real environment, and of course give me the benefit of believing that I know what it can't provide....

 

A good point from more than one post above was that if you are a licensed pilot, with some experience, you will probably be able to make a better use of such a program, and if the flight dynamics, the visuals, etc are good enough, you'll end up reproducing your RL flight techniques and being succesfull in the sim even under adverse situations.

 

In our local airclub once a year we have to fly a complete flight (glider) with all of the instruments occluded. The instructor/verifier asks you for distance, speed, altitude and even bearing and course esimations. Sometimes he adds some additional difficulty factor to the checkride. Sometimes playing MS FLIGHT in F13 view with no cockpit, I remember those checkrides, and do it all without even looking at the HUD (which I know can even be turned off :-) )

[Bobsk8 12,570]

Of course, most airline pilots today are trained in a new aircraft using simulators. It is too dangerous and expensive to train pilots in the actual aircraft anymore. Now, they are pilots prior to this training, but still when they train for a 767, 777, 737 or A340, and more, it is all done in the sim. Once their training is completed, they take one check ride in a real aircraft, as the PF, and the next time they fly, they have a load of passengers in the rear seats. Not all these sims are motion sims either.

 

When I flew the 767-400ER full motion sim in Delta's Atlanta Training Center, the only thing I had ever flown was Cessna 172, 152 and Warriors. I landed the 767 after flying a traffic pattern around Atlanta with a co pilot and instructor, and all my landings were pretty decent with only one where I flared about 30 feet to high and we hit the runway pretty hard. When the instructor asked me if I had any jet time as a pilot since he was surprised that I could land and fly the sim, I said only in FS9 with the Level D 767 and the PMDG, which I had flown for hundreds and hundreds of hours.

[matt_gold 1]

all the controls were backwards. I mean really backward, Pull back on the yoke and the nose dives, kinda of backwards and to increase power he pulls the throttle back.

augured in on takeoff after borrowing the Cessna at the local airport after earning his points badge in MS Flight.

 

Ray, while I respect your opinion, the two examples you cite of how a "sim pilot" consist of one person how mapped his controls BACKWARDS, and the other person who decides to STEAL a Cessna and take it for a joyride without having real world flight experience or training.

It sounds like you are not talking about sim pilots, but rather just idiots.

 

Sorry, too many real world pilots have said the same thing....quality sims do not teach you how to fly like real world experience will but they do help quite a bit. At least, that's what I've gathered reading these forums and talking to pilots conversationally in person.

[raymar 969]

Let's go back to the beginning. . . .MS FLIGHT is the 1st simulator that really can teach you to Fly!

 

I sincerely hope you don't buy into this and Microsoft starts using it as a byline. We already know their PR department is very weak if they even have one. He is not talking about 'Learning to Fly programs' in the real world or professional level flight simulators in Atlanta or things like that and supplemental instrument training or aiding one in learning the basics of navigation he is talking about a free arcade game that can really teach you to Fly and I think that is a real dangerous thought. I just fail to buy into his thinking that you can translate moving a mouse in front of your screen and then going out and flying a real aircraft and that is exactly his conclusion.

 

No mention of any formal training, no flight demos, no medical checks, no student pilot license, no reading manuals, just moving the mouse and then then going out and piloting a real airplane. Oh my.

 

 

Ray

[RoboRay 126]

Let's really not just completely overreact to everything.

[LHookins 3,102]

a Saitek yoke and pedals, except all the controls were backwards. I mean really backward, Pull back on the yoke and the nose dives, kinda of backwards and to increase power he pulls the throttle back.

 

This reminds me of the story where a guy cut and pasted a cockpit picture from another sim into a screen shot of Flight's Mustang and tried to pass it off as the actual Flight Mustang cockpit with the viewpoint moved back from the default external position.

 

Hook

[kentoo 0]

I doubt that anyone who controls Flight with the use of a mouse or in chase mode exclusively would do very well in a real airplane or professional level flight simulator. However there is little doubt in my mind that there are individuals who have never flown an aircraft in the real world but have been avid simmers that have the capability to fly a real aircraft. If nothing more than to get the craft up and back down such that they could walk away from the landing.

[Air1 136]

When I was a student pilot 30 years ago I was doing solo take offs and landing with a C-150. My instructor was sitting on a coke machine watching watching my landings. Now for reference there is a little flapper cover over the end of the pitot tube that will flip open from the airflow as that aircraft starts the takeoff roll. The pitot tube is used to measure airflow and that is trnslated to your airspeed indicator. A very simple system really on a small aircraft. Well, I started my takeoff roll and I was getting NO indication on airspeed gauge for my lift off speed. so here I was going faster and faster down the runway thinking that the flapper over the pitot tube would flip up. I know I was going fast enough to lift off. This is where I should have aborted the take off but I did not, I pulled the little C-150 off the runway and started to climb out, not a smart move. That darn little flapper never did flip. What have I gotten myself in to now. Having done this a hundred times before I flew the pattern by feel (the seat of the pants). Ok, climb out, turn to down wind leg, go through the check list, flaps, carb heat. turn base, more flaps, turn final, rest of the flaps out, reduse power for the last time, hold it off, hold it off, touch down on the mains, let the nose wheel down.

Best darn landing I ever made. parked and shut down. My instructor comes over and said whats the problem. I told her, she reached over with her finger and poped up that cover and said, looks ok to me. Well it never happened again, darndest thing. You have to have a feel for the control forces of the aircraft in flight. You can't get that from a simulator.

[raymar 969]

When I was a student pilot 30 years ago I was doing solo take offs and landing with a C-150. My instructor was sitting on a coke machine watching watching my landings. Now for reference there is a little flapper cover over the end of the pitot tube that will flip open from the airflow as that aircraft starts the takeoff roll. The pitot tube is used to measure airflow and that is trnslated to your airspeed indicator. A very simple system really on a small aircraft. Well, I started my takeoff roll and I was getting NO indication on airspeed gauge for my lift off speed. so here I was going faster and faster down the runway thinking that the flapper over the pitot tube would flip up. I know I was going fast enough to lift off. This is where I should have aborted the take off but I did not, I pulled the little C-150 off the runway and started to climb out, not a smart move. That darn little flapper never did flip. What have I gotten myself in to now. Having done this a hundred times before I flew the pattern by feel (the seat of the pants). Ok, climb out, turn to down wind leg, go through the check list, flaps, carb heat. turn base, more flaps, turn final, rest of the flaps out, reduse power for the last time, hold it off, hold it off, touch down on the mains, let the nose wheel down.

Best darn landing I ever made. parked and shut down. My instructor comes over and said whats the problem. I told her, she reached over with her finger and poped up that cover and said, looks ok to me. Well it never happened again, darndest thing. You have to have a feel for the control forces of the aircraft in flight. You can't get that from a simulator.

 

This kind of stuff still happens but it is usually because the 'remove before flight' cover is still on the pitot tube or if in Florida or the Islands a dirt dauber has blocked the line but the results are usually the same if the pilot was smart enough to come back for a landing immediately like you did. Good story, thanks.

 

Ray

[RoboRay 126]

 

This reminds me of the story where a guy cut and pasted a cockpit picture from another sim into a screen shot of Flight's Mustang and tried to pass it off as the actual Flight Mustang cockpit with the viewpoint moved back from the default external position.

 

Speaking of reckless actions that cost people respect...

[twsimfan 0]

I am not now and have never been a real pilot. As a diabetic I will never be one either.

 

I have flown every PC based GA flight sim that has ever been... I think. Could have been one or two minor ones that snuck past me. Also probably a couple of dozen military ones. I started with A2-FS1 by SubLogic in 1981. MS didn't buy the franchise until a couple of years later.

 

In September of 2004 along with a few thousand other AVSIM members I had the chance to fly some Class D full motion sims at the United Airlines Training Center here in Denver. I bought time for both my wife and myself so I wouldn't have to share the flying time. I had originally bought 3 hours in a 737-500 (I think 500 not sure on that now) and 3 hours in a 747-400. The FAA and Homeland Security stepped in and restricted us all to 3 hours total and no more than 2 hours in any Boeing. So we got 1 hour in a A320 sim on Friday night followed by 2 hours in a 747-400 on Sunday morning. After some orientation to the electronics the A320 instructor allowed me to "freelance it" for a few minutes over San Francisco provided I didn't get anywhere near any buildings. Then I had to do 35 minutes of touch and goes. He would stop the sim as soon as I had it stable after the takeoff then reset it to 40 seconds before touchdown. We did 10. Then he had me do an autoland followed by the final landing with most of the electronics disabled. It all went very well and the only mistake I made was to overestimate the toe brakes going back to the terminal... I didn't hit the window but I got within a few inches of it.

 

In the 747 on the first hour the instructor mostly taught me to use the computer to navigate and put me into various situations to see if I knew what was happening and how I would respond. I remember saying "we are going to stall" and him saying "what are you going to do about it" except that I had already pushed the nose down before he could say it. Then he had me coming in too steep and I said "man we are way over speed... can I pop the air brakes without ripping them off?" and being told "DO IT NOW!". That instructor had been there all night and had to go home so we took a 15 minute break and another guy took over. I am happy to say the break didn't come out of my time. The 2nd guy had a whole different attitude. He knew I was feeling pretty proud of myself and was determined to show me that I really didn't know how to fly a plane. He shut off all of the nav functions and everything having to do with the autopilot and said "OK lets go...". Once we were in the air he gave me every sort of weather imaginable. We were bouncing all over the sky and the simulation of lightning was incredible. I never failed to find my way back to the airport and never failed to make a decent landing. I kinda thudded the front gear on one landing but had been smooth with the mains... that was my worst landing. Then he insisted that my wife take a try at flying it even though she didn't want any part of it. She thinks it would make more sense if you pushed forward to go up and pulled back to go down... really. So she switched from the jump seat to the copilot's seat and I was still in the pilot's seat. As we were roaring down the runway she finally listened to us and pulled back but too far and just before we fell out of the sky I pushed forward on the yoke and averted the stall but I let go because I knew the instructor wanted her to do it. The next thing she had us over to the left limit at about 45 degrees and I grabbed it again and righted us. With bugged eyes and holding onto the console to keep from falling over the instructor said "HELP HER!" into my ear. I said I am and got a thumbs up in reply. He kept giving her instructions and I kept executing them often having to power the controls against her inputs. She was so nervious that I think to this day that she flew the thing. Once we were back on the runway he told me to take us back to the terminal and kept her busy showing her all the different stuff that the "400's" screens will do... some really cool stuff... I wish I could have watched that part better myself but I was too busy making sure I didn't blow it with the toe brakes again. When that 2nd 747 instructor told me I had really impressed him and gave me a 2nd thumbs up that made all the money I'd spent on the experience worth it.

 

OK I know in the back of my mind that I have never flown a A320 or a 747-400 but when I walked to the parking lot that day there was a chunk of my mind that believed I really had. Most of all I didn't want to leave... I wanted oh so much to go back in and keep flying. FSX didn't come out until about a year later and it took me a while to be interested in FS04 or any PC based sim after those big ones.

 

Do I think that if everybody but me suddenly died on a 747 or even an Airbus that provided I could get access to the cockpit I could safely land the thing. Sure thing... provided that I could get somebody on the radio to coach me along and remind me how to work all of those buttons. If I had to I think I could but I'd just as soon that the need never came to be and of course it wont.

 

Do I think that anybody in their right mind would or should let me get behind the controls of a real airplane? NO (Can't say that word here.)ING WAY!!!

 

In an absolute emergency I think I would have a much better chance than somebody (like my wife) who has no clue about how to control an airplane or how the laws of physics work on an aircraft...

 

At least my ego thinks I could. LOL

 

Sorry to bore everybody to death,

 

Tom Wunder