Avsim Integrity

[SpiritFlyer 987]

Avsim is an ideal, a concept that sprang forth from the beginnings of computer flight simulation. There have been far more serious challenges that were overcome over the past 15 years than we can even recite. Because Avsim prevailed over the odds each time, we are still here.

 

All of us have differing preferences, perceptions and choices when it comes to how we each participate in flight simulation. No two computers, hardware or software are the same. In fact most of us can not even agree on a single platform to fly with.

 

Avsim is not on a mission to iron out the differences and variations between us, but to accommodate as many divisions as possible by providing a home for each. So whether it be fs9, fsx, X-Plane, Flight, P3D, or any other of the games and simulations, each has a place right here on Avsim.

 

About MS Flight, some liked it, but most didn't. Many that didn't were not satisfied to just withhold their support but lashed out against MS through the Avsim MS Flight forum or anywhere else they could take a shot from. All too often these guys couldn't care less about being fair to those they disagreed with.

 

There will always be rivalry between adherants of different simulation platforms as we are a competitive and abrasive bunch most of the time. That is probably why there are so few ladies among us. But even so, there is a commonly held level of bad conduct that goes too far by anyone, anywhere.

 

The false accusations or insinuations that Avsim, or Tom Allensworth, or staff, at any level, was either bought off, pressured, or in any other way unduly influenced by MS on behalf of MS Flight is beyond acceptable limits. Such statements, or anything like it have no part to play in this community.

 

Avsim, or it's staff have never received a single dollar from MS on behalf of flight, directly or indirectly. Their advertising they placed with us was so screwed up by them that we refunded their money. At no time did any of us ever weight commercial interests against news covered or forum policy.

 

Tom Allensworth is an honorable man. Avsim is an honorable institution. We are honorable administrators and moderators. This is our land, our house, our home; and we will not be defamed, slandered and libeled here! Those who have made such claims, hinted at such (nudge nudge, wink wink), or agreed with them are no longer welcome to enter or stay.

 

Therefore I am permanently banning those who participated or made a point to actively agree in supporting the posts or statements in question. Presently that includes Carl Anderson and Lordblowtorch. Anyone else who writes in similar fashion or defends the libel against us, or hints at it, will follow suit.

 

Avsim has been here for 15 years and Tom and the crew have done their best to be supportive of every flight simulation platform that came along. Flight was no less, and no more than that. Instead of condemnation, I think high praise is in order for being such good stewards.

 

We may not be perfect but we do try, and we are not leaving any time soon. I hope that those who may not agree with everything we say and do, but yet have an interest in supporting us at this difficult time will stand up and be counted as our friends.

 

Kind regards,

[John_Cillis 2,406]

Stephen,

 

It's sad to see that you would even have to place a post like this. I think there's some out there who simply don't understand what Avsim is--that it's made up mostly of volunteers who, like ourselves, love anything associated with flying and flight simulation. You guys do a good job, and my thoughts are with you.

 

Regards,

 

John

[TechguyMaxC 516]

As a user of Avsim forums since just about the beginning, dating back to the "fsbench" section now relegated to the pages of history, I can say Avsim has been an invaluable resource over the years. I don't know what flight simming would be without it. Sure, flightsim.com has been around for even longer, but it's just not the same. The wealth of information collectively gathered and freely shared here is unsurpassed, and I sincerely appreciate and thank you all for that.

[EngineRoom 205]

It became apparent very early on that Flight wasn't going to be to the liking of a certain faction of flight simmers. Some of that faction took it upon themselves to attempt to poison the Flight forum and attack/insult those who *did* enjoy Flight. There were some astonishing displays of hostility, false entitlement and elitism in that forum that totally went against the grain of Avsim.

 

The line that Tom and Avsim took in the Flight forum was to create a friendly and constructive atmosphere that would accommodate those who did enjoy flght and nurture those who were new to flight sims - not to be a soap box for those who wanted to shout down Flight and its users. That is something I support 100%.

[Matthew Kane 1,343]

Some people love Ford pickups, Some people love Dodge pickups, Some people love GMC pickups. I choose to stay out of that rivalry.

 

FS9 vs FSX vs Flight vs P3D vs X-Plane is the same silly rivalry really and has similar bad behaviours at times. To each their own.

 

Microsoft is in a different business environment then it was 15 to 20 years ago so no need to say much about Flight, it is obvious that MS is changing to adapt to a market that has already changed. Desktop Computers where the majority of sales back when Windows 95 was released, today Desktop Computers are less then 10% of total computer sales. A relic from the past really, and they won't be making a comeback anytime soon either.

 

Cheers

[Eric Tomlin 10]

Thanks Stephen

 

As a very long time member of AVSIM (way back in 1998 I became a member initially) I fully support Tom and the crew here and can say that without doubt, it is the finest flight simulation website ever, and I know that integrity is present here. Some folks just have to create drama. All the best with your hands so full!

 

And, as someone once said: "Cant we just all get along?!"

[Sam Nicholson 0]

Hear, hear!

[blueridgeflyer 1]

Thanks for taking the time to provide additional clarity on the matter Stephen. Flight has generated far more philosophical discussions about our beloved hobby than sales unfortunately. IMHO it was a messaging issue. That was not a deliberate fault of Avsim's.

[bobbyjoh 11]

Thanks Stephen,

 

Its sad that you had to write this statement, but it was appropriate and necessary. I know Tom personally and was just appalled at the insinuations, innuendos that were made. Tom and the entire AVSIM staff have always been the most honorable and trustworthy organization that supports the FS community. To have not provided a forum for MS Flight would have been a disservice to the community which AVSIM serves so professional and uniquely.

 

Microsoft made a poor business decision regarding Flight, and ignored the chorus of negative feedback from the FS community. Like other businesses that don't listen and find their products failing, MS has also fallen into this same category of failed products.

 

Lastly just as Tom and the entire AVSIM staff act in a professional manor, it behooves all of us in the FS Community to act the same. Defamatory and insulting comments toward any member on AVSIM should never be tolerated and being banned is an appropriate action.

 

Getting along here is not the issue its respect for the individual and this organization.

 

Bob

[Geofa 108]

Thanks Stephen !

[spilok 1,133]

People who resort to these personal accusations are generally "cowards". This forum and its administrators have always played fair...and for the most part, the members of AVSIM respect each other's opinions and ideas.

I'm proud of the integrity that is very obvious throughout this forum. Keep up the good (and difficult) work.

 

Stan

[n4gix 4,947]

Thanks, Stephen for writing so cogently and succinctly what needed to be said. I support AVSIM one hundred percent in this action.

[Bert Pieke 7,584]

Add me to the supporters! And I totally agree with the action taken.

 

Avsim is the most professional flight sim site I know, and I enjoy coming here daily!

[Robert W 3]

AVSIM is not "mostly" volunteers, we are ALL volunteers. I've been with AVSIM for 12 of those 15 years, and I've seen many a volunteer come and go. The dedicated ones stick around.

 

I've read more than my fair share of those who agree to disagree within the forums. I'd say 95% of the participants have voiced their opinions, retorts, agreements, disagreements and personal views with dignaty and respect. But that small minority can't voice their opinions without slander, disrespect and/or ignorance and have to be deleted and/or banned in order for the rest of the forum users to not be subjected to their banter.

 

I try to stay out of the forum arguments unless their is absolute "wrong" information being generated. Words written here can be taken so far out of context that some put their own spin on it and the thread continues from there.

 

With regards to MS Flight, I was invited by Microsoft to attend their "media day" as AVSIM's Reviews Editor. I listened unbiasly to their "sales pitch" and what this product was and what it had to offer. Also in the room were 3rd party developers from various "brand name" companies we are all familiar with. At the end of the presentation I was free to develop my own opinion of the product based on what I had heard.

 

The consensus around the room appeared to be unanimous, this "game" would not fly with the simming public. Microsoft's concept was that this was not for simmers but for the millions of people who wanted the opportunity to experience flying without having to have any knowledge or skills in the cockpit. Afterall, you play/control the game with a mouse.

 

It's free yet you have to buy Microsoft points to purchase add-ons. By the way these add-ons are Microsoft owned so if you're a 3rd party developer, you have no rights over them once Microsoft gets ahold of them. In my opinion,they dissed these 3rd party developers as there's nothing in "Flight" for them.

 

So Microsoft wants to launch a huge ad campaign with AVSIM. Why, we'll we're the #1 fan based flight sim website so we'll get the word out to our millions of readers. They hired a PR firm to run the campaign. This PR firm wanted signed contracts, a raft of agreements and total control over our webpage and how the ads were going to be run. Sorry, not going to happen boys. That's not the way we do things. We are "equal opportunity" space providers for whoever wants to run an ad campaign. You don't have to supply us with product before we'll let you run an ad like some websites. We're here to help you get the word out about your product.

 

We started their campaign under our rules, but this "professional ad company" didn't like the fact that we were in control and tried to take over the "ad functions" again. Thanks, but no thanks....here's your money back. They got a week of free advertising over this mess, so you can see that we were NOT in Microsoft's pocket. We do just fine without their business dollars.

 

So now Flight has come and gone. Let's get on with supporting our 3rd party developers for FS9, FSX and now X-Plane. Let's experience what Prepar3d offers to FSX. Let's try something new with X-Plane. The hobby isn't dead. That's obvious with all of you still hanging out at AVSIM. I'm still loving my time here and will continue supporting both the AVSIM staff and the AVSIM public.

 

You're still free to express your opinions in our forums. But for that 5%, let's keep it civil and try to stay on topic. Remember, opinions are like belly buttons....we all have one.

[Danny_M 1]

Thank you, Stephen, for putting all of our (the staff's) thoughts on this matter into words. I have only been with Avsim for a short period of time but this organization...like all flight simming organizations I have been a part of...do this out of love for the hobby and the user. It's a serious shame to see those efforts denigrated when they are provided free of charge and in the hope that someone's gaming experienced is enriched. Tom is a very active and compassionate steward of Avsim; he's always considering the user's point of view in the decisions he has to make.

 

We are very lucky to have Tom and a bunch of other people who help make this hobby better.