If you think you have found something that's not working.........

[Ompakar 0]

Hello everybody, and happy new year!

 

How come; when I ask my FO to "set heading 173" he comes up with something quite different. The closest so far was when he set it to 171. Same with speed. "Set speed 134" and then again he come up with numbers not even close.

 

I noticed that if my heading is 110 and i want to change it to 223, I can not ask for "set heading 223". I have to ask for heading 113. 110 + 113 = 223. Is this normal?

 

Altitude have the same story and it occurs every single time.

 

Whats the matter with my FO. Anybody else with a similar problem.

 

I use FSX with Pmdg 737ngx.

 

Ompakar

[FS++ 707]

Hello everybody, and happy new year!

 

How come; when I ask my FO to "set heading 173" he comes up with something quite different. The closest so far was when he set it to 171. Same with speed. "Set speed 134" and then again he come up with numbers not even close.

 

I noticed that if my heading is 110 and i want to change it to 223, I can not ask for "set heading 223". I have to ask for heading 113. 110 + 113 = 223. Is this normal?

 

Altitude have the same story and it occurs every single time.

 

Whats the matter with my FO. Anybody else with a similar problem.

 

I use FSX with Pmdg 737ngx.

 

Ompakar

 

Make sure fsInsider.dll inside FSX folder is the same version as the actual MCE version you're running.

 

Ensure you've installed PMDG service pack SP1c. There is a spearate SP1c for the 600-700 series. Install that too if you have the extension pack.

 

Assuming you're running the latest 2.5.1.6 version, there should be a dll called "mcpmd73X.dll" in \Flight Simulator X\MCE dlls\ folder.

 

dll version should be 2.0.1.3

[cptawsom 19]

It has been happening more or less rather "lately" (more or less since after v 2.5.1.6 or 2.5.1.8), not always, but often:

 

The ATC window continuously pops up. I dismiss it and it pops up again. When it happens it happens at the moment when I am waiting at the runway holding point (or runway start, after having been told to line up and wait) and getting take-off clearance from ATC. I respond and acknowledge tha take-off clearance, and then dismiss the ATC windows. And then it keeps popping up, although there is no message to be exchanged at this phase, not until I lift off.

 

Of course this is very irritating as it happens during the take off roll.

 

Any idea why this is happening? And why it has gotten more "aggressive" and frequent lately?

 

 

 

PS: I am not using MCE to handle ATC (and in general I only use ATC just for take off and landing clearances, since it knows nothing about SIDs/STARs/approaches). However I keep the option checked-activated. Why? Because the phrase "I have the radio" is something my FO always understands in my environment (my room, my speakers, my microphone etc.), and it an excellent "diagnostic" phrase. If he responds, I know everything is OK. If not, I know to go to the MCE window titlebar, and toggle the speech recognition ON -> OFF -> ON, to reset it, and it works again.

[KingGhidorah 209]

Still very new to MCE, but I think I found something that isn't working.

 

On some planes the Copilot can read the V-speeds directly from the system, but on others he cannot.  The MD-11 is such a case where the copilot apparently cannot read the V-speeds.

 

I have tried telling him the Vspeeds.  "Takeoff V1 is xxx, Takeoff V2 is yyy, Takeoff Vr is zzz."  He acknowledges those.  However, on the Monitor status page of the GUI, those speeds remain fixed at some default, and incorrect, value. 

 

The only way to have the correct callouts is to therefore go to windowed mode and set the V speeds to monitor in the MCE gui, which is an immersion killer.  I would much like to simply be able to inform my Copilot of the V-speeds verbally and have that be enough for him to monitor those speeds!  Isn't that how it is supposed to work? 

[FS++ 707]

Still very new to MCE, but I think I found something that isn't working.

 

On some planes the Copilot can read the V-speeds directly from the system, but on others he cannot.  The MD-11 is such a case where the copilot apparently cannot read the V-speeds.

 

I have tried telling him the Vspeeds.  "Takeoff V1 is xxx, Takeoff V2 is yyy, Takeoff Vr is zzz."  He acknowledges those.  However, on the Monitor status page of the GUI, those speeds remain fixed at some default, and incorrect, value. 

 

The only way to have the correct callouts is to therefore go to windowed mode and set the V speeds to monitor in the MCE gui, which is an immersion killer.  I would much like to simply be able to inform my Copilot of the V-speeds verbally and have that be enough for him to monitor those speeds!  Isn't that how it is supposed to work? 

 

Thanks for reporting this glitch.

 

Although when FO confirms the V speeds he definitely has the correct values, the UI wasn't updating. Will be fixed in next update.

 

In general, we don't expect the users to monitor the UI. Users should only use it to set their preferences and then forget about it. Flight phase detection is done automatically, and FO will always be in synch with what you're doing.

[KingGhidorah 209]

Thanks for reporting this glitch.

 

Although when FO confirms the V speeds he definitely has the correct values, the UI wasn't updating. Will be fixed in next update.

 

In general, we don't expect the users to monitor the UI. Users should only use it to set their preferences and then forget about it. Flight phase detection is done automatically, and FO will always be in synch with what you're doing.

 

There were a couple of more things that I ran into that are of a similar nature regarding not being able to verbally convey information that he can't get from the sim itself.  When I say "Our Destination is Kilo Bravo Foxtrot India" he reads it back, and then on the MCE Gui, the Alternate airport is filled in with KBFI.  When I say "Our Alternate is..." he mistakes the command.  Likewise with the Cruise altitude.   So the Alternate is filled in, but the Cruise Alt and destination remain filled with ?????.

 

I asked him (Clive) what our destination was and he responded that "We are sitting on runway 34 Kilo Sierra Alpha Echo", which we were.  But I didn't ask him that!

[KingGhidorah 209]

Sorry to pile on with the problem reports, but here are some more things that I'm observing, specifically with the NGX. I could very well be doing something wrong on my end, especially since I'm fairly new to MCE, but since they work on other planes just fine, I'm inclined towards pointing them out as potential bugs:

 

I've not been able to get the FO to understand that we are in the departure phase of flight. When we begin the roll he calls "brakes active," even though there are no brakes being applied. He shouldn't call it on landing either unless brakes are actually being applied. He doesn't call out the V speeds. And once we lift off, I expect to hear him say "positive rate" like he does on other planes. Upon pulling the gear up, I've heard him say something like "A little low to have the gear retracted" or something of that nature. I don't know if it's something I've been doing to confuse him, but he seems to be out of sync, and thinks we are landing. As far as I know this is only occuring on the PMDG NG.

 

He has problems processing Course Select instructions beginning with a "One", but does not have this problem with the Heading Bug, or any other instance involving a leading One. For example, if I tell him to "Set Heading One Six Two", or "Set Flight Level One Nine Zero" he has no problem setting the Heading Bug or the Altitude. If I tell him "Set Course One Six Zero" on the other hand he will always set the Course selector to 069--he drops the One. Again, only affects the NGX as far as I've seen, and works perfectly on every other plane I've tried.

[WR269 367]

In the MCE control panel, go to "Checklist" and make sure the aeroplane selected in the PMDGNGX and not B738. If it is, then MCE will be expecting the default B738, and not the PMDG model.

 

[FS++ 707]

I've not been able to get the FO to understand that we are in the departure phase of flight. When we begin the roll he calls "brakes active," even though there are no brakes being applied. He shouldn't call it on landing either unless brakes are actually being applied. He doesn't call out the V speeds. And once we lift off, I expect to hear him say "positive rate" like he does on other planes. Upon pulling the gear up, I've heard him say something like "A little low to have the gear retracted" or something of that nature. I don't know if it's something I've been doing to confuse him, but he seems to be out of sync, and thinks we are landing. As far as I know this is only occuring on the PMDG NG.

 

This suggests MCE isn't getting the correct data from the sim leading to all sorts of symptoms.

 

Since version 2.5.3.8 we are trying to remove the need for users to disable UAC.

 

mce.exe is set to request admin privileges on startup. And because Windows doesn't allow two applications that are on different privilege levels to communicate, fsx.exe must be set to run as admin too.

 

If either MCE or FSX is installed outside the standard \Program Files...\ folder you will need to disable UAC.

 

For MCE to interface the NGX, you need to make sure you installed the NGX SP1C. There is a separate SP1C for the 600-700 series.

 

Check that you have a dll called "mcpmd73X.dll" in \Flight Simulator X\MCE dlls\ folder. Current file version is 2.0.1.5

 

 

He has problems processing Course Select instructions beginning with a "One", but does not have this problem with the Heading Bug, or any other instance involving a leading One. For example, if I tell him to "Set Heading One Six Two", or "Set Flight Level One Nine Zero" he has no problem setting the Heading Bug or the Altitude. If I tell him "Set Course One Six Zero" on the other hand he will always set the Course selector to 069--he drops the One. Again, only affects the NGX as far as I've seen, and works perfectly on every other plane I've tried.

 

This isn't a bug.

 

Because there are 2 sets, one is referred to as "Course one" and the other as "Course two"

 

So, when you say "select course 162", he will understand it as "set course one 62"

 

Same for nav 2 course, saying "set course 224" will be seen as "set course two 24".

 

Either say "set course one, 162" or use the less confusing variations

 

"nav one course 162"

"nav two course 224"

..there are other variations, see "shared commands" documents

[KingGhidorah 209]

"nav one course 162"

"nav two course 224"

..there are other variations, see "shared commands" documents

 

 

ok.  Using the exact terminology you have provided, I got him to set both nav courses unambigously.  I didn't succeed in using such phrases as "set course one, one six two".  That's ok, as long as I can have something that consistently works, and maybe it is just a matter of doing additional calibration.  So we're good here, thanks.

 

This suggests MCE isn't getting the correct data from the sim leading to all sorts of symptoms.

Since version 2.5.3.8 we are trying to remove the need for users to disable UAC.

mce.exe is set to request admin privileges on startup. And because Windows doesn't allow two applications that are on different privilege levels to communicate, fsx.exe must be set to run as admin too.

If either MCE or FSX is installed outside the standard \Program Files...\ folder you will need to disable UAC.

For MCE to interface the NGX, you need to make sure you installed the NGX SP1C. There is a separate SP1C for the 600-700 series.

Check that you have a dll called "mcpmd73X.dll" in \Flight Simulator X\MCE dlls\ folder. Current file version is 2.0.1.5

 

 

 

I've verified the things you have said.  UAC is, and has been disabled.  FSX, I always run by right clicking run as Administrator, and have been doing that all along.  MCE is installed in D:\Program Files, FSX is installed in a custom location, but this shouldn't be a problem because UAC is off.  MCPMD773X.dll exists in the MCE.DLL folder.

 

I have the 600, 700, 800, and 900.  I have verified that they are all up to SP1C standard, by opening up their respective aircraft.cfg file and verifiying that each one begins with "Current with Build: 1.00.3219" which is sp1c.  The 600/700, in fact, never have been anything different than sp1c because I purchased them months after sp1c was released.

 

I have now learned that the problem appears to be restricted to 600 and 700 series aircraft.  Up until now I have only been flying the 600 and 700 aircraft.  Today, I used both the 800 and 900.  The FO performed very well on both of those and had no confusion as to whether we were in the departure phase.  V speeds were called correctly, I got "positive rate", everything as it should be.

 

When I went back to 600 and 700 aircraft, he was again back to thinking we were in the Arrival phase, problem as before.  Back again to 800/900, worked ok.

 

It obviously could be something on my side, but I'm almost certain that I have a very clean installation of 600/700/800/900 PMDG NGX aircraft.  Really, I'm convinced it's all good.  Everything you mentioned appears to be in place.  Can somebody with the 600/700 aircraft, perhaps confirm (or refute) my observations?

[FS++ 707]

 

 

I have verified that they are all up to SP1C standard, by opening up their respective aircraft.cfg file and verifiying that each one begins with "Current with Build: 1.00.3219" which is sp1c. The 600/700, in fact, never have been anything different than sp1c because I purchased them months after sp1c was released

 

I suggest you go ahead and install Sp1C for the 600-700 variants.

 

MCE interfaces all the PMDG NGX variants the same way, via the published PMDG SDK. One of the requirements of the latter SDK is to ensure users have SP1C installed.

 

There could be an order in which all these variants and their SP1C should be installed.

 

In any case, I doubt you will need to dig deeper than that.

[KingGhidorah 209]

You are suggesting that I need to apply the SP1C patch to the 600/700 even though the 600/700 already is, and always has been, SP1C? That means that all the custom options and dozens of hours of maintenance data for each tail number will have to be very carefully backed up and reconstituted. I'll do it, because I want MCE to work, though it was the last thing I wanted to hear. I hate to screw with an apparently clean installation by applying patches that shouldn't need to be applied.  :angry:

 

Upon running the PMDG 6700 "patch" for SP1C, I receive the following message:

 

"The setup has detected that version 1.00.3219 of PMDG 737 6700 NGX is already installed

This setup updates PMDG 737 6700 NGX to the same version that is already installed, therefore this update is not needed.

Do you want to install the update anyway"

 

I said Yes, and will now start checking MCE out.  I hope this works, because I just blew away all the customization data from my installation pertaining to the 600 and 700, and I don't know if it is wise to just copy it all back in.  I'll let you know what happens with MCE

[KingGhidorah 209]

No luck.

 

I verified it all over again, and the behavior differences in MCE between 600/700 and 800/900 is still very clear.  On the 800 and 900 aircraft the FO understands we are departing, and he gives callouts appropriate to takeoff, such as "80 knots" and V-speeds.  On the 600 and 700 aircraft the FO, as before, despite that fact that we are departing, makes calls appropriate to the landing rollout, such as  "brakes active" and does not call V speeds or 80 knots.    So we are same behavior as before, even though we are now doubly sure that my installation is SP1C (1.00.3219) around for all variants.

 

FS++, what happens when you attempt to take off in the 600 or 700 aircraft?   You are getting appropriate callouts on yours?  Can anybody please confirm that their 600 and 700 is displaying different behavior than what I'm observing?  I can't make a determination if this is a local problem or a bug in MCE, specific to 600/700 unless somebody comes forth and positively confirms that it works for them. 

[KingGhidorah 209]

After hours and hours of trying to get to the bottom of it, I have some good news and some bad news.  The good news is that I think I have pinpointed precisely what is going on with the 600 and 700, and am now able to get partial capability with them.  The bad news is that everything seems to point to a bug in MCE in the way it is handling reduced thrust takeoffs.

 

Since I typically fly short haul flights with low fuel and a relatively light aircraft, I almost always takeoff with a fixed derate of TO-2 (on the N1 Limits page).  All my usage of the 600 and 700 aircraft with MCE up until now have been with the TO-2 fixed derate, because it was the appropriate derate to use.

 

On the 800 and 900 aircraft, TO-2 (22K derate) sets a fixed derate limit of 91.7% N1.  This doesn't account for a double derate, an assumed temperature in addition will push the N1 down even farther.  But assuming I skip the assumed temperature, my takeoff N1 in the 800 and 900 aircraft is never below 90%, even when using TO-2, the lowest fixed derate.

 

However, in the -700 aircraft using a fixed derate of TO-2 (20K derate) will push my takeoff N1 down to 88.5%.  In the -600 aircraft, both TO-1 and TO-2 push me below 90% Takeoff N1.

 

What I've found is that in the 800/900 aircraft I can use TO, TO-1, and TO-2, and the FO will always recognized we are taking off, and make the appropriate calls.  In the -700, TO and TO-1 are okay, and he makes the calls, but if I use TO-2, he doesn't seem to understand we are taking off, probably because we are only at an N1 of 88.5%  And finally on the -600, he will only recognize we are taking off if I use the Full Rated Takeoff thrust, with an N1 maximum of 91.7.  Using TO-1 and TO-2 will not trigger him to call out V-speeds.

 

I have not experimented with any double derated reduced thrust takeoffs, but I believe that anything that pushes the Takeoff N1 below 90% will cause an error in the way the FO handles Takeoff call outs.

 

I just conducted about 20 takeoffs in all variants of the PMDG 737, and I'm completely certain this is the problem.  This situation may or may not exist on other supported aircraft such as the MD-11 or LVLD as well, I haven't tried them.

[FS++ 707]

 

 

Since I typically fly short haul flights with low fuel and a relatively light aircraft, I almost always takeoff with a fixed derate of TO-2 (on the N1 Limits page). All my usage of the 600 and 700 aircraft with MCE up until now have been with the TO-2 fixed derate, because it was the appropriate derate to use.

On the 800 and 900 aircraft, TO-2 (22K derate) sets a fixed derate limit of 91.7% N1. This doesn't account for a double derate, an assumed temperature in addition will push the N1 down even farther. But assuming I skip the assumed temperature, my takeoff N1 in the 800 and 900 aircraft is never below 90%, even when using TO-2, the lowest fixed derate.

However, in the -700 aircraft using a fixed derate of TO-2 (20K derate) will push my takeoff N1 down to 88.5%. In the -600 aircraft, both TO-1 and TO-2 push me below 90% Takeoff N1.

 

Thanks for providing valuable info.

 

It is definitely the issue.

 

Part of FO's job is to workout the flight phase by looking at various parameters (speed, throttle lever pos, N1, vario, etc...)

 

It appears, with de-rated takeoff, the cutoff point is slightly mis-coded.

 

And yes, it would affect any aircraft.

 

Thanks for bringing this to our attention.