Why are they avoiding the word "entertainement"

[Talek]

Hello,

I am quiet sure that everybody here play this game, oh sorry, not the "game", the "visual simulation platform" for entertainement and because we all love simulation here. (we also learn)

Why are these guys (Lockheed Martins company) avoiding the word "entertainement", and presenting this thing very weirdly ?

[Ian McPhail]

Almost certainly got to do with the conditions of sale when they bought the FSX base code - officially titled ESP. At that time MS was still trying to get FLIGHT into the market, so no doubt did not want to pass the entertainment rights to Lockheed Martin.

 

As everything to do with a full scale flight sim has to do with learning and proficiency, the I have never found the LM EULA in anyway restrictive. Nor do a number of add-on developers, aircraft, scenery, weather engines and FSUIPC.

 

Regrettably there are a number of standouts like PMDG and Captain Sim, but I understand that there are ways around everything. Most all FSX addons can be quickly migrated across.

[Arismac]

Almost certainly got to do with the conditions of sale when they bought the FSX base code

 

How about because LM probably do not want and never will want to support, an entertainment product, Ian? They are not in that market and never have been. After all MS are moving out fairly fast so why would LM want to get in in the first place. At the moment P3D users are forming self supporting groups as per the Orbx and this web site. Suits LM just fine.

[Syd Weedon]

Hello,

I am quiet sure that everybody here play this game, oh sorry, not the "game", the "visual simulation platform" for entertainement and because we all love simulation here. (we also learn)

Why are these guys (Lockheed Martins company) avoiding the word "entertainement", and presenting this thing very weirdly ?

 

Flight Simulator is not entertainment. Flight Simulator is a lifestyle. LOL

[Talek]

Maybe LM guys were a big fan of FSX and when they heard that the game will stop they decided to buy it despite the restrictions and conditions (no use for "entertainement") and continue to develop the simulator, they maybe thought that by this way they will avoid casual gamers and give the simulator a big life time.

So perhaps they bought the simulator especially for us and not for "education and training".

[japascoe]

Maybe LM guys were a big fan of FSX and when they heard that the game will stop they decided to buy it despite the restrictions and conditions (no use for "entertainement") and continue to develop the simulator, they maybe thought that by this way they will avoid casual gamers and give the simulator a big life time.

So perhaps they bought the simulator especially for us and not for "education and training".

 

LM is a company that produces multi-million dollar defence equipment (JSF, F22, F16, masses of other stuff) with an annual turnover of tens of billions. They are not a consumer software company. They decided to produce P3D because a branch of their company sells training services and equipment and they decided P3D would nicely complement that line of business. Compatibility with FS add-ons is a plus because it's easier to convince the firefighting department of airport X to buy your training platform if they can also cheaply get an exact replica of their actual airport to go with it.

 

LM is avoiding the 'entertainment' customer because as a company they don't sell to consumers, only to governments and other companies, and they most likely don't want to change that. Regardless of what the agreement with MS may or may not stipulate, there's absolutely no reason for LM to be interested in selling P3D to consumers.

 

P3D is professional software, not consumer software. If you get enjoyment from using P3D as a consumer, that's fine, but don't expect P3D to ever become something it's not.

 

There's nothing wrong with using and enjoying P3D, but if you think LM is any less focussed on making money than MS then you are kidding yourself.

[Dr Vesuvius]

I think Arismac and japascoe have really cut to the heart of the matter. Producing a consumer entertainment product brings with it certain support expectations and responsibilities. LM are not a consumer-level company, and they certainly wouldn't be setup to deal with the volume of support requests they'd be likely to get if they pitched P3D into the entertainment marketplace. Just look at some of the problems people post here and at other flight-sim sites.

 

So officially they discourage its use for entertainment purposes. Personally I suspect that the flesh-and-blood people involved in the P3D project don't have a problem with serious flightsimmers buying P3D for their own entertainment, and aren't going to be sending round the Flightsim Police if they get reports of you "enjoying" their product. It's just that LM as a company don't want to put themselves in the position of having to deal with a torrent of calls from irate mom's who bought the "game" for little Jimmy and can't figure out how to install it on their Apple Mac.

 

Dr V

(ex IT support guy, and has the scars to prove it)

[wizzards]

does it really matter ,I am unable to understand questions Like this ,my P3d is running smoother ,looking sharper ,no spikes and allows me to just get on flying ,and learning about flying without having crashes ,poor visual effects etc etc ,How many hours were Wasted trying this tweak that tweak to try and get MS Fsx to run correctly ,because Ms were unable or to lazy?to finish the job ,LM are constantly improving the sim ,This is not for the F sim people it because as I see it LM do not want and cannot afford 2nd best for their professional customers,and we for the small amount of £30 have been allowed to use it,the last aircraft add on i purchased cost that amount ,why does it matter that they don't talk about entertainment ,in my opinion we should just enjoy the best £30.worth in the flight sim business

peter

[Dr Vesuvius]

The one case where it does matter is with PMDG, who produce super-accurate sim aircraft that many people love. They have a definite policy only allowing their product to be used for entertainment purposes, partly because they don't want the legal responsibility of someone using it for profesional training then suing when they blame the sim for a crash. I also heard they have a partner agreement with Boeing that restricts them to entertainment products only.

 

So they have an entertainment-only product that people are wanting to run on a platform that's explicitly not for entertainment purposes. If they're seen to allow that to continue, then legally that opens them up to claims they're allowing their aircraft to be used for pro training. So they're putting things in place to deliberately stop their planes from working in P3D. And many simmers are unhappy as a result.

[wizzards]

hello ,are you telling me that using PMDG 737 wil result in anyone gaining a pro Pilots liecense to fly a 737 Aircraft ,without going through all the req training courses and exams etc ,A friend of mine whos son wants to be a pilot will be pleased , now purchase FSX and PMDG 737 ,sit in your bed roomn for 1000 hrs and bingo self trained 737 pilot ,I do not think so, It might play a small part in obtaining qualifications ,I belive that what ever course /exams anybody takes for their training for a pro pilot Qualification it is hard and intensive and seems to be very well tied up to me ,thank god ,also a very well know flight sim retailer has a pro division /that use FSX and P3D as a base for there training courses,they advertise this as a feature on there website home page in big type ,Do MS produce a pro version of FSX as I always belived FSX was for entertainment only ,and as the PMDSG 737runs in FSX ? LOL

peter

[Ian McPhail]

Hey guys, deep breaths please. This EULA debate has plenty of altitude but little oxygen.

 

I HAD I emphasise, a Command Instrument rating, for which I practiced on a primitive flightsim of those days. Now I can do this on P3 or FSX. In the old days and now, I know that the only real time was in the plane in the air with an instructor or examiner. Sure today there are good ground trainers which provide you with simulator time toward the six monthly renewals, but in truth I never got the two mixed up. Yet that sim time even then kept me in shape for the real test.

 

I consider every flight in P3 or FSX a training flight, and I always strive to improve. Surely every one of you out there in reader land, try and do a better landing each time you fly, even in heavy iron that we would never fly in reality. After all, the leg time in an NDB let down is longer over a certain IAS - have you tried one? I have many.

 

I am happy, As far as I am concerned the EULA interprets well for me.

 

And you know I never sit expecting a knock on the door from men in raincoats flashing warrants because someone somewhere believes I have misused P3D.

[Dr Vesuvius]

LOL no, Peter. It's purely legal bollocks. But nobody ever accused lawyers of living in the real world did they? Don't forget we live in a world where a guy twirling a loaded gun around his finger shot himself and then went on to sue the gun maker. Or the oft-quoted case which led to all McDonalds coffee cups bearing the warning "Contents may be hot." People will sue at the drop of a hat, and if someone involved in a crash had the remotest chance of shifting the blame onto "something I learned in the simulator made me crash" then I'm sure they'd give it a go. They'd probably lose, but probably not before an expensive and messy court case.

 

There is an urban legend going around that hours in MS Flight Sim can be counted towards hours for your pilot's license. Not true, as far as I know. As I understand it, there is a certain percentage of flight hours that can be done on simulators, but they have to be on FAA (or equivalent) certified setups, not just a PC in your bedroom. However it is possible to build a simulator setup using MSFS and get it certified, and I think that's the case that PMDG want to avoid.

 

Like I said, that's just how I understand the situation. I may be wrong.

 

"Do MS produce a pro version of FSX as I always belived FSX was for entertainment only"

 

Actually they did, and that's what Microsoft licensed to Lockheed Martin and eventually became Prepar3D.

 

Dr V

[mgh]

However it is possible to build a simulator setup using MSFS and get it certified

 

My understanding is that's not [possible because the FAA requires the following statement from the software developer :

 

"This is to certify that <

Name of Software Company or Developer> has demonstrated that the operating system and/or functional kernel(s) <Software part number and version/revision>, is fully compatible with <Name of ATD Manufacturer, Make and Model> and can assure that the communications/transport data latency is not greater than 300 milliseconds all analog and digital input signals meet the performance criteria established for software performance by the ATD manufacturer."

 

Microsoft won't issue one for FS.

 

Also, the device must be used the supervision of an authorized instructor for any hours to count.

 

http://rgl.faa.gov/r...36?opendocument

[nudata]

Professional software for people who take a professional attitude for its use. This is not "kiddie ware". It is not FSX. It may look similar but in the future it will have a much different character. I worry that entertainment discussions may cause some exec to make acquisition of the product more restrictive. While very valuable "public" feedback helps LM. They do not need useless discussions about entertainment products. Once and for all this is for training. If you are entertaining yourself by doing something else then do that privately.

[wizzards]

Hello just to say I in no way was trying to be rude to Dr Vesuvius or start a debate about the legal point of any flight sim ,but what I always have found interesting in life are statements from companies that on really looking into them do not make sense or stand up ,real bollocks are funny ,and what annoys me are companies that think I/us must be thick enough to believe there verbal diarrhea ! so please no insult offered or intended ,I am simply to bloody old ,but i still believe P3d is GREAT thank you LM

peter