SID and STAR are not absolute to Commercial commuters airplanes and/or only for those who have FMS on-board.

SID and STAR are also relevant to even Cessna 172 when you fly IFR (unless specified you must be equipped with RNAV aboard).

you just need to do it more manually then if you had an FMS and prepare your plight plan/path accordantly,

performance like a cross radials to find the spots an/or have GPS on-board if a FIX is based on GPS location and not on NavAids, etc.

 

Note that SIDs / STARs (usually) tell you also the RADIAL and the DME you to use on every part of the SID/STAR, that is for those who use VOR/DME instruments

and don't have FMC on board, or more accurate saying FMC is not needed to follow the SID/STAR correctly for the Departure/Approach.

 

here is an example of a SID (NAT3B):

Climb on 077° to 540 - at D3 BGN - turn right on 270° - at R145 BGN turn right direct to BGN - turn onto R010 BGN to KANER - NAT.

what is says is very simple: Take off, keep at 077° (pretty much the RW08 heading in this case), when you reach D3 (3DME), turn right until your heading is 270°.

wait until you reach/intercept Radial 145 on BGN VOR, then turn right to the VOR keeping R145 outbound until you reach BGN VOR.

once reached BGN VOR, turn right to it's Radial 010 outbound until you reach NAT VOR via KANER FIX which is D12 (12DME) from BGN VOR on R010 outbound.

as you can see from this SID, I don't need FMC at all, all I need is a VOR & DME instrument to be able and perform this SID.

 

There is no doubt that having FMC on-board makes it much easier, but it does not exempt you from using SID/STAR with the equipment you got (VOR/DME),

unless instructed otherwise by ATC of course.

Hi Joel,

thank you for that information.

Andreas

Hi again all. Thanks for the active discussion. Most interesting and educational.

 

As Volker suggested, running the runway number update was what was required. Tonight I was assigned the Hochwald5N departure off Rwy 33 (previously had been 34). Clearly VoxATC could not associate any of the current SIDs for LFSB with a Rwy 34 that no longer exists. My other attempt from another airport must have confronted the same problem. [As an aside, the first time running the update failed ... it updated many runways up to and including all those with an ICAO code starting with K, but did not update those starting with L or later. Maybe there is a limit on how many the updater can process at once?]

 

To clarify for other readers who have followed the discussion of flight planning and what waypoints to insert in order to obtain a desired SID, in my case the Hochwald (HOC) waypoint is the exit waypoint for SIDs for most of the south- and east-bound routes off both main runways at LSFB. So putting HOC as the first waypoint after departure ensures that a SID is assigned irrespective of wind direction and runway in use. (Not so clear going west and north. There the SID exit waypoints look like theyh differ as between different runways in use. Necessary to listen to ATIS before filing, I guess.)

 

Andreas, the complicated procedure of loading and starting a flight (saving the intended IFR flight, then opening another, then returning to the saved flight) was partly due to seeing a comment somewher that FSX needed that in order to properly read in the new flight plan and attach a SID and/or STAR to it. As you are having no problems, maybe that is not an issue. And thanks for the tip about updated scenery. Will try the freeware one recommended.

 

And as Joel noted, I just need VOR & DME to fly these procedures. I use the GPS procedures database only for additional situational awareness (a.) because I'm trying to fly it the hard way (b.) for many of these procedures a GPS is not valid as a primary navigation instrument and (c.) the Reality XP GNS530W database is a few cycles old and may not have all the current AIRAC procedures.

 

Thanks again.

 

David

Hey Team.Would there be a way to load a simple flight plan (no last point/first point of the sid/star) and let voxatc assign it to you ?

Almost every IFR flight plan contains the 1st/last point of a SID/STAR in it (assuming the Airports in question have SID/STAR for the Direction/route you flying)

as it is part of the enroute you going to be using, hence this Question is not really relevant

in most cases.

the SID/STAR way point(s) doesn't have to be the 1st/last way point in your flight plan to be assigned with a SID/STAR by ATC,

as long as you've got those way points in your flight plan, you are good, which in most cases you will anyway.

 

if you want to give me an example of a "simple" flight plan you had in mind, we can go over it here with you and we would probably most likely

see that it already contains the SID/STAR way points in the FP.

post here an example of a simple FP you had in mind and we will analyze it here.

Hi thanks for your response.This is the flight plan that i obtained from route finder.

 

EHAM LOPIK UN852 GTQ UQ343 BEGAR UN491 TRA LSZH

 

Iam however always facing a pro

blem getting a sid/star.Sometimes i get it,sometimes i dont.

EHAM LOPIK UN852 GTQ UQ343 BEGAR UN491 TRA LSZH

 

as you can see from the Bold way points in the route , you already have a SID way point in your flight plane.

from EHAM to LOPIK you would probably be assigned with "LOPI2E" / "LOPI1F" for RWYS 18L, 04 Departures,

"LOPI1G" / "LOPI1N" / "LOPI1P" for RWYS 22, 09, 27 Departures, "LOPI1R" / "LOPI1S" for RWYS 06, 24 Departures, "LOPI2V" / "LOPI1Z " for RWYS 36L Departures.

for your arrival / STAR , you don't have a Route that includes a standard Transition (TRA1Z Transition at you case, could maybe be used).

 

here is an example of a route which have SID/STAR from/to the airports to the enroute.

EHAM LEKKO UN872 NIK UM624 DIK UN852 MIRGU UT407 BLM LSZH

 

a common misconception is that SID/STAR are part of a flight plan or a flight route.

that is wrong. a SID is a flight path standard that will get you to your enroute flight path and the STAR is the other way around.

but that is true if there is a SID/STAR for the flight path you are using.

 

a good source I found for flight plans is "http://www.vataware.com" (Top Routes , on the left hand side bar)

they have usually the most realistic flight plans there, you should try it out.

Also try Routefinder http://rfinder.asalink.net/free/ - I use this with EFB (includes your SID etc.), add any arrival procs (past end of STAR). Save, then load into FSX then Vox will find OK - does for me. Though if you're using live weather, you may find that ATC will re-route you to a different runway for current wind . .

Also try Routefinder http://rfinder.asalink.net/free/ - I use this with EFB (includes your SID etc.), add any arrival procs (past end of STAR). Save, then load into FSX then Vox will find OK - does for me. Though if you're using live weather, you may find that ATC will re-route you to a different runway for current wind . .

 

Hi.Yes i used the above link to generate flight plans however due to the weather being a factor i never really got a sid/star.I would now try vataware and see if i get the sid/star.Will report back

 

EHAM LOPIK UN852 GTQ UQ343 BEGAR UN491 TRA LSZH

 

as you can see from the Bold way points in the route , you already have a SID way point in your flight plane.

from EHAM to LOPIK you would probably be assigned with "LOPI2E" / "LOPI1F" for RWYS 18L, 04 Departures,

"LOPI1G" / "LOPI1N" / "LOPI1P" for RWYS 22, 09, 27 Departures, "LOPI1R" / "LOPI1S" for RWYS 06, 24 Departures, "LOPI2V" / "LOPI1Z " for RWYS 36L Departures.

for your arrival / STAR , you don't have a Route that includes a standard Transition (TRA1Z Transition at you case, could maybe be used).

 

here is an example of a route which have SID/STAR from/to the airports to the enroute.

EHAM LEKKO UN872 NIK UM624 DIK UN852 MIRGU UT407 BLM LSZH

 

a common misconception is that SID/STAR are part of a flight plan or a flight route.

that is wrong. a SID is a flight path standard that will get you to your enroute flight path and the STAR is the other way around.

but that is true if there is a SID/STAR for the flight path you are using.

 

a good source I found for flight plans is "http://www.vataware.com" (Top Routes , on the left hand side bar)

they have usually the most realistic flight plans there, you should try it out.

 

 

Hi so basically i just copy the flight plan, export it to voxatc and ask for clearance.I hope i dont have to edit the flight plan ? By the way does the above link support Indian/Asain areas ?

 

Also does weather affect the sid/star that i get from the flight plan ? Suppose i get a sid from the vataware but the weather suggests a different depature, does vox atc assign another sid or do i get cleared directly ?

1st of all, Yes , Vataware supports Asia, most of my flights are done in APAC region and all the routes I fetch from vataware.

 

now for the SID and STAR.

you need to really understand what is a SID, the same is true to STAR, but I'll talk about SID here (just think about it as a revers process for STAR).

SID is not determined by weather and it has nothing to do with weather Directly.

there are 2 basic elements that determine what SID one would be using or probably assigned by ATC.

1. the 1st main way point in your enroute path, think of it as the exit/entry number to the Highway you need to take to get onto the highway.

2. the Runway in use.

every exit/entry point in the enroute that is used regularly by the airport in question, usually there is a SID to it. the SID is a path/procedure you follow from the moment you liftoff the ground until you reach your 1st point in your main enroute.

think of it like as you driving from the city to the highway. you have number of paths you can take to get to the highway from the city, however you would pick the path

that would get you to let's say exit 21, as that is the closest or desired exit you want to get to, to go onto the high way that would get you to the other city.

so you will pick a specific route that is suited for Exit21 and exit21 only.

so if we take a look at the route below:

EHAM LEKKO UN872 NIK UM624 DIK UN852 MIRGU UT407 BLM LSZH

 

you can see that we are leaving the City of EHAM to get to the highway at exit LEKKO, therefore I'll be taking the path in the city of LEKO1F that would take me

to Exit LEKKO to get onto the highway which would lead me to LSZH city.

 

now as you remember I also said that SID is depended on RW in use?

so to make things more complicated, every SID if you notice have a Number in it and a letter at the end of it.

those two elements are unique.

they are unique in the way that that SID with that Number and/or letter are

meant to be used to get to exit 21 only from a specific RW, RW04 in EHAM to LEKKO for example.

 

e.g. if we take our example above of LEKKO (as our exit21), you can see that there are number of SIDs

to it, but you will also notice that all the difference in them is the numbering and/or the letter after the number.

those mean that it is the same SID (well different rules maybe) but just for different RW.

so if we take for an example EHAM which has 12 RW which you could potentially use for take off to get to LEKKO, you will

need 12 different SIDs, as every RW has it's rules how to get to Exit21 or LEKKO in our case.

so here you can see we have

LEKO1F (runway 4)

LEKO1G (runway 22)

LEKO1N (runway 9)

LEKO1P (runway 27)

LEKO1R (runway 6)

LEKO1S (runway 24)

LEKO1T (runway 6)

LEKO1Z (runway 36L)

LEKO1V (runway 18)

LEKO1R (runway 36L)

every letter after the number is for the RW in use.

Some RW in use might have two routes/Paths/procedures to get to exit21/LEKKO as you can see in the example above.

and Some RW don't have SIDs at all for exit21/LEKKO as you can see in the example above as well (RW18L/C/R, 36C/R).

BTW - those RWYs who don't have SIDs are expected to get radio vectors from ATC to get to Exit21/LEKKO.

in away the ATC is your SID.

 

there are some SIDs that are the same SID to all RW, but that you would find more in smaller air ports.

 

as a rule of thumb, a SID is unique for the Entry/Exit point to your enroute and the RW in use.

the same is true for STAR, just in reverse (from the Highway to the city through a specific Exit).

that is also how VovATC knows what to give you, based on the route and RW in use.

as you can see Weather has no direct impact on the SID/STAR at all.

the only relation to SID/STAR and weather is indirect, by determining the RW in use.

I hope this sheds some light on the matter.

 

Though if you're using live weather, you may find that ATC will re-route you to a different runway for current wind . .

 

that is optional, as you can disable in "VoxATC Settings" the option of "Enroute Traffic Instructions" (v6.06)

or in v6.05 there is a specific one for weather.

..........

Quite so Joel, forgot that. Mind you it's a bit unnerving with the UT2 traffic coming at you as you land. I presume the Vox traffic would be handled as you are by ATC - no head-ons - I hope B)

 

Cheers

VoxATC handles your UTII AI traffic, I can't say it's perfect though, but it's fairly good in general.

I didn't think UTII traffic decides which runway is in operation, that's FSX ATC. If you are head on into traffic on approach, you may probably have winds aft.

that is correct, UT2 only injects the traffic , FSX ATC controls it's move.

in VoxATC case, Vox inject the UT2 traffic and Vox ATC controls it.