FSX-MS Inherent flaw of FSX to give too much ground friction?

[Johan_Dees 84]

That is what I am getting too. Some planes DO need work. But for some it doesnt change much.

There IS user action needed to make it perfect, and thats a community effort, not mine. Just helped to get the framework.

 

I dont have a NGX, but my L749 does a great job on it, but I might need to tame the takeoff thrust a bit.. still trying.

 

Its not a plug and play solution, its giving one a real environment when on the ground, but since most, if not all, planes are made for the stock setting, ALL are off a bit.

Some more, some less.

 

Those with some less are lucky, and can fly happily on, since they have differences in a couple of feet. (Neglectable) Those with less can take it or leave it, or adjust their planes.

The last action involves airfile editing, maybe the community can help, but mostly record 1506 needs to be adjusted for ground thrust. And thats easy if you determine

the difference in takeoff roll. If its 20% lower, adjust the values 20% lower or about to get beack to square one, giving you the best of both worlds, aka real rollout, real takeoff run.

Google Herve Sors for Aired, and look for your self, first row is on the ground thrust, eat your hart out.

[JesC 88]

Excellent contribution Gentlemen. You are all to be congratulated. Thankyou for sharing your talent, time and work with us.

 

It seems to me a byproduct of this mod is that the inherent fsx difficulty taxiing turboprops (KingAir, Turbine Duke, Piper Cheyenne. etc.) seems to have been virtually eliminated. Perhaps this is placebo, or just wishful thinking on my part but, thus far it seems to be at least vastly improved. It is well worth using for that alone for me.

 

One question, if I may. When implemented through the FSUIPC 4859k are there changes to the wet, icy, and grass/gravel behaviour? I have not been able to figure out how to look at the setting/values being used.

 

Edit: Is it implementing the settings as shown in the "Frictions.lua" in the "Example Lua Plugins" folder?

[Johan_Dees 84]

Excellent contribution Gentlemen. You are all to be congratulated. Thankyou for sharing your talent, time and work with us.

 

It seems to me a byproduct of this mod is that the inherent fsx difficulty taxiing turboprops (KingAir, Turbine Duke, Piper Cheyenne. etc.) seems to have been virtually eliminated. Perhaps this is placebo, or just wishful thinking on my part but, thus far it seems to be at least vastly improved. It is well worth using for that alone for me.

 

One question, if I may. When implemented through the FSUIPC 4859k are there changes to the wet, icy, and grass/gravel behaviour? I have not been able to figure out how to look at the setting/values being used.

 

Edit: Is it implementing the settings as shown in the "Frictions.lua" in the "Example Lua Plugins" folder?

 

Sir, the values for icy, wet and snow I left untouched, IF we ment the scalars on the ground type.

For example. concrete has a value, and some scalars for wet, ice and snow. Same for rolling or sliding.

This means that on a runway x you have rolling friction y and slide friction z. Snow, ice and rain change these values with a preset, left unchanged atm.

Gravel, grass etc is adjusted as appropriate, but have the same scalars, aka impact on their setting.

 

On the FSUIPC thing I cant comment, but Peter did, and will do. Read carefully his responses above. For me its stil abracadabra.

 

On the turboprops.. never tought about it, but yes, with the lower rolling friction I can imagine that the beta range now works as it should be.

Nice catch!

[JesC 88]

Thanks for the response Johan.

 

I always appreciate your insights and efforts.

 

Thanks.

 

It may take me a while to digest and understand but I'll get there!

[kevinh 409]

And your verdict sir is ?

So far so good, Johan, it's a definite improvement. I plan to keep the mod in by default. I haven't done much subjective testing yet, I wanted to see what the objective effect was first. I fly a wide range of types for my VA, so I'll let you know how it goes in this thread.

 

I think some addons may already compensate for the excessive friction by messing around with thrust so it may well be the mod needs to be switched off when flying them. I've been reloading FSX after changing FSUIPC.INI, but if there's a way to switch the mod in and out without doing this it would be a real bonus.

[hervesors 1]

For those who are interested in rapidly checking the effect of ground friction coef changes, without doing any test, I designed some time ago a "performance calculator" that is only based on FS aircraft data (as defined in air and cfg files). I recently add a take off performance calculator in which ground friction coef can be changed for dry, wet, icy and snow conditions (FS9 only have 1 coef whatever the surface conditions are). You will see that the effects are rather large on take off runs..At this time calculations are limited to hard runways

Link is here (AJPC) http://www.aero.sors.fr/afsd.html

[flying_bob 38]

For those who are interested in rapidly checking the effect of ground friction coef changes, without doing any test, I designed some time ago a "performance calculator" that is only based on FS aircraft data (as defined in air and cfg files). I recently add a take off performance calculator in which ground friction coef can be changed for dry, wet, icy and snow conditions (FS9 only have 1 coef whatever the surface conditions are). You will see that the effects are rather large on take off runs..At this time calculations are limited to hard runways

Link is here (AJPC) http://www.aero.sors.fr/afsd.html

 

thanks herve always appreciate and enjoy your work/utilities

[CoolP 283]

Thanks for the test, kevinh. On a sidenote. I would expect planes which feature normal autobrake systems to show a more significant difference on the stopping distance. The NGX, same as the Feature Pack iFly, aim for certain deceleration rates (adjusting the actual brake pressure) while older or less detailed addons just apply a fixed braking force.

 

Either way, a short test of Johan's and Pete's work showed a large improvement on the actual feel of the plane for me. Can't thank you guys enough. :smile:

[Echo41H56 0]

Take Off and Landing Runway Length Requirements for B737's can be found here:

 

http://www.boeing.com/commercial/airports/acaps/737sec3.pdf

 

An XML - Gauge for measure takeoff/landing distance. It's for FS2004, should also work in FSX.

 

http://library.avsim.net/search.php?SearchTerm=odo.zip&CatID=fs2004gau&Go=Search

[kjjj11223344 48]

For those that have used the NGX, is the only difference in the takeoff run (the landing distances are minimally changed, I assume, due to the more realistic way the NGX braking system is designed)? I mean, are there any alterations to the flight dynamics and/or climb/descent performance of the NGX? I really want to try this mod as it seems to make single engine taxi finally possible.

[FSMP 95]

Ref: http://fs-mp.com/sim1

 

This page was created earlier, to provide a place for Johan to publish his patched version(s) of sim1.dll, so that others could provide feedback.

 

It grew a little, as Peter Dowson came onboard, to provide a FSUIPC solution, and the page referenced his Beta version(s) of FSUIPC, that has the Friction processing added.

 

Now that things have settled down, and are not changing on a day-to-day basis, the page has really served it purpose, and would be removed, except that doing so would make a lot of references in this forum, reference a deleted resource.

 

As far as FSUIPC is concerned, the links to version of FSUIPC (on fs-mp.com/sim1 ) are only for Historical Reference to support this forum thread.

 

Those that use FSUIPC should always refer to Peter Dowson's support Forum, for links to download FSUIPC.

[Bob Scott 7,720]

Pete--it seems to me that a reasonable compromise solution for those attempting to keep high-fidelity add-ons "on the numbers" would be to dynamically change the rolling friction values back to default at groundspeeds above taxi speed (say ~30 knots). I'm a C++ gauge programmer and not currently Lua-enlightened--would Lua allow that sort of dynamic control?

[Pete Dowson 558]

Pete--it seems to me that a reasonable compromise solution for those attempting to keep high-fidelity add-ons "on the numbers" would be to dynamically change the rolling friction values back to default at groundspeeds above taxi speed (say ~30 knots). I'm a C++ gauge programmer and not currently Lua-enlightened--would Lua allow that sort of dynamic control?

 

Yes, I think so -- assuming FS doesn't need to regenerate some tables for the coefficients to take effect. It might otherwise need the aircraft to be reloaded. I don't know -- someone who can recognise the effects of the friction changes will have to check that out.

 

If it will change directly "on the fly" without an aircraft reload, then you need to just have an event-based function which acts on the offset for "on the ground" or groundspeed, check those values, and change the friction using the "setfriction" function. It doesn't really need much experience to put together such simple Lua scripts -- check some of the examples supplied in the package and in the User Contributions sub-forum on my Forum. Programmers, especially those programming in C++ like yourself, would find it a real doddle in comparison with most programming.

 

I'm looking forward to some such contributions by those who know what they are doing, dynamics-wise. If anyone want any pointers Lua-wise, just ask in my Support Forum.

 

Best Regards

Pete

[Pete Dowson 558]

if there's a way to switch the mod in and out without doing this it would be a real bonus.

 

Of course there's a way. The individual Lua files to control it (using the new friction functions) can be loaded based on Profile or aircraft name, same as assignments, calibrations, etc.

 

Regards

Pete

[Bob Scott 7,720]

Pete...I've been doing some experimenting with the ipc.SetFriction calls in Lua (does that now make me a "Luatic?"). I can confirm that dynamic "on-the-fly" changes to the friction settings do indeed work in FSX.

 

I've written a Lua program that restores the rolling friction and braking coefficients to default when groundspeed is above 30 knots...this allows the benefits of the reduced coeffecients during taxi ops (i.e. easier breakaway, low-power taxi, better brake effectiveness during block-in etc), yet minimizes effects to the add-on designer's FDE-driven takeoff and landing performance...a best-of-both-worlds compromise. I'll send you the Lua file.

 

Cheers