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chabrier

Inherent flaw of FSX to give too much ground friction?

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God, I did read all the 9 pages, and I'm lost. (I got registered FSUIPC)

 

I installed FSUIPC4859 and did put PatchSIM1friction=Yes in the .ini. Is it enough for this to work ?

 

Thanks for all the non hardcoregeeksimmers here :P

 

Yes is there a 'dummies guide' to installing this and getting it to work i.e.

 

1. Download this

2. Do this

3. Do this

4. Do this

5. Do this

 

 

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Question. Anyone know where I can find the FS9 version? I tried looking around, but wasn't able to find it. Thanks.

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I installed the latest FSUIPC registered version # 4.859m but I do not see anything about frictions when I run FSX and go to FSUIPC... I know I am doing something wrong...

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Hi everyone;

I've been steered over here by folks who are extremely interested in what's being discussed. As an adviser on realism for MSFS going back to the FSX Beta process I can tell you that this exact issue has been a thorn in my realistic side since the beginning. Over time I've discussed the issue with friends who were members of the Aces team and they are aware of my concerns AND the issue.

Reading over this thread it is apparent that the issue is well understood by the people discussing it and having Pete Dawson involved in this is a HUGE plus for the community.

I feel strongly you people might be well into finally solving this problem. I feel the issue is so important it represents perhaps the most important unsolved realism factor in FSX.

Considering I'm NOT a computer guy but rather on the aircraft/aerodynamics end of this equation I've noticed the issue being discussed mainly on takeoffs in MSFS. To expand a bit I've noticed it most on tail wheel aircraft after the tail wheel leaves a runway and the aircraft is on the takeoff run balanced on its 2 main gear. It's also noticable on nose wheel equipped airplanes but in my opinion not as pronounced.

I've described the problem to Microsoft as I saw it at the time during the beta as the aircraft seemingly rotating on a pivot axis in slew as opposed to what I felt I should have been seeing on a takeoff run with rudder input. I was seeing slew from side to side with the nose changing direction with a 0 change in ACTUAL direction. In the real aircraft I SHOULD have been seeing with rudder input a SERPENTINE WEAVE as the aircraft reacted to the applied rudder with the airplane changing DIRECTION. What I was getting was a slewing yaw on a PIVOT.

As some have said, exactly like the aircraft was on ice and hydroplaning in yaw.

Please accept my best wishes to all of you working on this. If the solution is found you will have succeeded in making desktop simulation just that much more realistic and more useful as a tool in real world aviation.

Dudley Henriques

MVP Microsoft FS 2006-2007

 

Many thanks Dudly, this is a nice encouragement for the FSX community !

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I noticed a line in the fsuipc config file "LuaRerunDelay=66" and after adding the dynamicfriction.lua file to my modules folder and the appropriate "[Auto]

1=Lua DynamicFriction" lines to my fsuipc config file, the sim seems to either not be loading completely or simply taking forever to do so. I can select a plane and location but as soon as I click fly now it starts loading and then the loading box goes blank and the sim doesn't seem to load. Any relation or is something else at play here?

 

edit: removing that line does indeed result in the sim loading normally.

 

edit 2: and placing the section at the bottom of the config now allows it to load normally, however I still seem to have the same excessive ground friction whilst attempting to taxi in my Carenado C152 II, needing ~1500 engine RPM to achieve ground roll as opposed to the ~1000 I should need.

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Max--do you have FSUIPC4 v4.859k or later (4.859m is current) installed? Prior to the "k" subversion, the ipc.SetFriction call used in the DynamicFriction.lua script did not exist--it might be the FSUIPC Lua loader is stuck in a loop with the script failing due to a call to a nonexistent function, waiting 66ms, reloading the script, failing, waiting... etc

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Max--do you have FSUIPC4 v4.859k or later (4.859m is current) installed? Prior to the "k" subversion, the ipc.SetFriction call used in the DynamicFriction.lua script did not exist--it might be the FSUIPC Lua loader is stuck in a loop with the script failing due to a call to a nonexistent function, waiting 66ms, reloading the script, failing, waiting... etc

 

Perhaps you're right, Bob. I am running the latest version. FSX is back to working now as of my latest edit of the config file, however the ground friction seems to be about the same. One thing I haven't tested so far is to put all of the .lua files into the FSX modules folder (only the DynamicFriction), is this needed?

 

Edit: just tested, little to no difference or at least not seeing the desired results of ground roll from 1000 RPM.

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Perhaps you're right, Bob. I am running the latest version. FSX is back to working now as of my latest edit of the config file, however the ground friction seems to be about the same. One thing I haven't tested so far is to put all of the .lua files into the FSX modules folder (only the DynamicFriction), is this needed?

 

No, don't put any Lua scripts files that you don't intend to run into the modules folder.

 

FSUIPC should also have added a [LuaFiles] section to the .ini automatically:

 

[LuaFiles]
1=DynamicFriction

 

I'm not sure if this has to appear prior to the Auto section or not...

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No, don't put any Lua scripts files that you don't intend to run into the modules folder.

 

Thanks Bob, I'll take the others out then.

 

FSUIPC should also have added a [LuaFiles] section to the .ini automatically:

 

[LuaFiles]
1=DynamicFriction

 

I'm not sure if this has to appear prior to the Auto section or not...

 

It did and it is. I've played with the location of these lines within the config file as well, having both of them at the beginning and the end of the file with no difference in results.

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I've mainly noticed issues with brake friction during runups and with takeoff behavior. I should note that I don't use the default aircraft at all mainly using FSX as a world vehicle for the add on developer with whom I am exclusively associated.

I consider the takeoff behavioral issues to be THE issue to be yet solved in FSX.

DH

 

Hi Dudley--describe the brake friction during runup issue in detail for me, please...is it a problem of not having enough braking authority to hold position without creeping during a runup? I'm thinking I could add some code to the DynamicFriction lua script to beef up the brake friction below, say a tenth of a knot of groundspeed...that would produce an enhanced braking effect to hold during a runup, but would only affect braking while essentially stopped.

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@Max--you might try running a different lua script, like the "init pos.lua" included in the example plugins, to ascertain whether you have a problem with the lua interpreter or FSUIPC's interface to it.

 

Some other thoughts...make sure you're using an original (unmodded) sim1.dll. And you can run a Lua debug window from the FSUIPC logging menu...that might provide some insight into whether things are loading and/or terminating abnormally.

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@Max--you might try running a different lua script, like the "init pos.lua" included in the example plugins, to ascertain whether you have a problem with the lua interpreter or FSUIPC's interface to it.

 

Some other thoughts...make sure you're using an original (unmodded) sim1.dll. And you can run a Lua debug window from the FSUIPC logging menu...that might provide some insight into whether things are loading and/or terminating abnormally.

 

Bob, I've started a new log for debugging lua plugins but when I open said log it says nothing of lua plugins. Here's what it says (name and email address removed)

 


********* FSUIPC4, Version 4.859m by Pete Dowson *********
User Name=
User Addr=
FSUIPC4 Key is provided
WIDEFS7 not user registered, or expired
 2419295 System time = 16/12/2012 11:43:15, Simulator time = 11:32:27 (19:32Z)
[Continuation log requested by user]
Running inside FSX on Windows 7
Module base=6BFB0000
 2419295 LogOptions changed, now 80000000 00000001
 2495673 Sim stopped: average frame rate for last 76 secs = 81.5 fps
 2542598 LogOptions changed, now 00000000 00000001

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I've played with the location of these lines within the config file as well, having both of them at the beginning and the end of the file with no difference in results.

 

Sections in INI and CFG files can be anywhere in the files without making the slightest difference to their action. They are accessed and processed by Windows "profile" functions which merely take the name of the INI / CFG file, the section name and the parameter name.

 

I've started a new log for debugging lua plugins but when I open said log it says nothing of lua plugins.

 

The Lua debug log only operates if it was enabled at the time the Lua plug-in was started, as it needs to have debug hooks installed on loading. So if you have a contnuously running plug-in which is automatically loaded at the start of the session you'd need to restart FSX after enabling the option. You might get it started also by changing aircraft, to force the [Auto] section to be re-executed.

 

 

FSUIPC should also have added a [LuaFiles] section to the .ini automatically:

 

[LuaFiles]

1=DynamicFriction

I'm not sure if this has to appear prior to the Auto section or not...

 

Again, it isn't relevant where it appears. It is automatically generated by FSUIPC scanning for Lua fies. And the entries aren't used for the [Auto] action, only when the Lua files are assigned to and activated by buttons or keypresses. The number assigned to the Lua file (1 in this case) is used as its reference in the encoding of the buttons and keypress parameters and internal tables.

 

Regards

Pete

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Thanks Pete, I'll restart FSX and check the log again.

 

Edit: definitely logging lua events now, no idea if this means it's working or not as it hasn't seemed to change the behavior of my Carenado Cessna 152

 


********* FSUIPC4, Version 4.859m by Pete Dowson *********
Running inside FSX on Windows 7
Module base=6C460000
User Name=
User Addr=
FSUIPC4 Key is provided
WIDEFS7 not user registered, or expired
      15 System time = 16/12/2012 12:49:31
      15 FLT path = "D:\Max\Documents\Flight Simulator X Files\"
      31 Trying to connect to SimConnect Acc/SP2 Oct07 ...
      31 FS path = "C:\FSX\"
     265 LogOptions=00000000 00000001
     265 ### SIM1 base=20BB0000, friction=20BB2870
     265 SIM1 Frictions access gained
     265 Wind smoothing fix is fully installed
     265 G3D.DLL fix attempt installed ok
     265 SimConnect_Open succeeded: waiting to check version okay
     265 Trying to use SimConnect Acc/SP2 Oct07
    1357 Running in "Microsoft Flight Simulator X", Version: 10.0.61637.0 (SimConnect: 10.0.61259.0)
    1357 Initialising SimConnect data requests now
    1357 FSUIPC Menu entry added
    1388 C:\FSX\FLIGHTS\OTHER\FLTSIM.FLT
    1388 C:\FSX\SimObjects\Airplanes\Aircreation_582SL\Aircreation_582SL.AIR
   11981 C:\FSX\SimObjects\Airplanes\Carenado C152II\SingleEngineProp.AIR
   56051 System time = 16/12/2012 12:50:27, Simulator time = 12:49:33 (20:49Z)
   56051 Aircraft="C152II LIGHTBLUE"
   66175 Starting everything now ...
   66175 LUA.0: beginning "C:\FSX\Modules\DynamicFriction.lua"
   66175 LUA.0: C:\FSX\Modules\DynamicFriction.lua:6
   66175 LUA.0: Global: ipcPARAM = 0
   66175 LUA.0: C:\FSX\Modules\DynamicFriction.lua:10
   66175 LUA.0: C:\FSX\Modules\DynamicFriction.lua:11
   66191 LUA.0: C:\FSX\Modules\DynamicFriction.lua:12
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   66207 LUA.0: C:\FSX\Modules\DynamicFriction.lua:48
   66207 LUA.0: C:\FSX\Modules\DynamicFriction.lua:49
   66222 LUA.0: Global: taxi_spd = 30
   66222 LUA.0: C:\FSX\Modules\DynamicFriction.lua:52
   66222 LUA.0: Global: cur_status = 1
   66222 LUA.0: C:\FSX\Modules\DynamicFriction.lua:53
   66222 LUA.0: Global: GS_ipc = 6
   66222 LUA.0: C:\FSX\Modules\DynamicFriction.lua:54
   66222 LUA.0: Global: GS = 0.0001779638671875
   66222 LUA.0: C:\FSX\Modules\DynamicFriction.lua:56
   66222 LUA.0: C:\FSX\Modules\DynamicFriction.lua:61
   66222 LUA.0: Global: slow = 1
   66222 LUA.0: C:\FSX\Modules\DynamicFriction.lua:91
   67127 LUA.0: C:\FSX\Modules\DynamicFriction.lua:52
   67127 LUA.0: C:\FSX\Modules\DynamicFriction.lua:53
   67127 LUA.0: Global: GS_ipc = 0
   67127 LUA.0: C:\FSX\Modules\DynamicFriction.lua:54
   67127 LUA.0: Global: GS = 0
   67127 LUA.0: C:\FSX\Modules\DynamicFriction.lua:56
   67127 LUA.0: C:\FSX\Modules\DynamicFriction.lua:61
   67127 LUA.0: C:\FSX\Modules\DynamicFriction.lua:91
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   68937 LUA.0: C:\FSX\Modules\DynamicFriction.lua:61
   68952 LUA.0: C:\FSX\Modules\DynamicFriction.lua:91
   69670 Advanced Weather Interface Enabled
   69841 LUA.0: C:\FSX\Modules\DynamicFriction.lua:52
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I've noticed alot of posts about how the 737NG should taxi. This is an idea how the aircraft responds to thrust.

Thrust Use

Thrust use during ground operation demands sound judgment and technique. Even at relatively low

thrust the air blast effects from the large, high bypass engines can be destructive and cause

injury. Airplane response to thrust lever movement is slow, particularly at high gross weights.

Engine noise level in the flight deck is low and not indicative of thrust output. Idle thrust is

adequate for taxiing under most conditions. A maximum of 40% N1 should be adequate to initiate taxi

in most situations. Allow time for airplane response before increasing thrust further.

Excess thrust while taxiing may cause foreign objects to deflect into the lower aft fuselage,

stabilizer, or elevators, especially when the engines are over an unimproved surface. Run-ups and

taxi operations should only be conducted over well maintained paved surfaces and runways.

Pilots will ensure that the area immediately behind the engines is clear of personnel prior to

taxiing.

 

Note: Personnel should be no closer than 175 feet behind an engine at idle and no closer than 400

feet behind an engine at breakaway thrust.

 

Do not be diverted from the primary task of safely taxiing the airplane. The flight crew should

avoid all unnecessary activity and duties that can be accomplished at another time.

 

Backing with Reverse Thrust

 

WARNING: Backing with reverse thrust is prohibited.

 

Taxi Speed and Braking

To begin taxi, release brakes, smoothly increase thrust to minimum required for the airplane to

roll forward, then reduce thrust as required to maintain normal taxi speed. A turn should normally

not be started until sufficient forward speed has been attained to carry the airplane through the

turn at idle thrust.

The airplane may appear to be moving slower than it actually is due to the flight deck height above

the ground. Consequently, the tendency may be to taxi faster than desired. This is especially true

during runway turnoff after landing. The ground speed display on the PFD/ND may be used to

determine actual taxi speed. The appropriate taxi speed depends on turn radius and surface

condition.

 

Note: Some taxi speeds, usually between 15 and 25 knots, can cause an increase in airplane

vibration, especially on rough taxiways. If this occurs, a slight increase or decrease in speed

reduces or eliminates the vibration and increases the passenger comfort.

Taxi speed should be closely monitored during taxi out, particularly when the

active runway is some distance from the departure gate. Normal taxi speed is approximately 20

knots, adjusted for conditions. On long straight taxi routes, speeds up to 30 knots are acceptable,

however at speeds greater than 20 knots, use caution when using the nose wheel steering wheel to

avoid overcontrolling the nose wheels. When approaching a turn, speed should be slowed to an

appropriate speed for conditions. On a dry surface, use approximately 10 knots for turn angles

greater than those typically required for high speed runway turnoffs.

 

Note: High taxi speed combined with heavy gross weight and a long taxi distance can result in tire

sidewall overheating.

 

Avoid prolonged brake application to control taxi speed as this causes high brake temperatures and

increased wear of brakes. If taxi speed is too high, reduce speed with a steady brake application

and then release the brakes to allow them to cool. Braking to approximately 10 knots and subsequent

release of the brakes results in less heat build-up in the tires and brakes than when the brakes

are constantly applied.

Under normal conditions, differential braking and braking while turning should be avoided. Allow

for decreased braking effectiveness on slippery surfaces.

Avoid following other aircraft too closely. Jet blast is a major cause of foreign object damage.

During taxi, the momentary use of idle reverse thrust may be needed on slippery surfaces for

airplane control. The use of reverse thrust above reverse idle is not recommended due to the

possibility of foreign object damage and engine surge. Idle reverse thrust may be necessary on

slippery surfaces to control speed while taxiing. Consider having the airplane towed rather than

relying on extended use of

reverse thrust for airplane control.

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Some numbers for the NGX guys to test and compare too after the mod. I ran some quick numbers from the performance manual. These numbers are based on the BBJ 737-700. For an aircraft at 179,000lbs, flaps 15,4000PA , 32C and dry runway. The takeoff ground run up to 35ft was 11,100ft. For landing distance I looked at MAX manual braking and also autobrake set to 2. For an aircraft at 179,000lbs, flaps 30, 4000PA, 32C and dry runway. With max man braking + auto spoilers landing distance was 4150ft. With auto brake set to 2 + auto spoilers landing distance was 9250ft. Landing distance is based on thresh at 50ft and 1000ft air distance. You can also shoot me some conditions and weights. Ground run is a bit harder since the charts are based on runway available + conditions to give a runway limiting gross weight instead of distance based on a given gross weight. The landing distance is alot easier as it gives you corrections based on weight, PA, Temp, braking conditions, reverse, spoiler and auto brake use. I can calculate it as long as it is a BBJ 737-700.

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I just noticed that you guys may not be able to get your BBJ that heavy. With lower weights and std conditions, I can't get into the runway limiting charts meaning runway isnt a factor. The chart tops out at 190,000, so it may be linear data for testing purpose. Lets just go with 130,000 flaps 30, dry runway, std day and braking reprted as good.

max man braking=3830

max auto=4190

auto 3=4830

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Wow I've seen this thread grow but didn't feel the need to read it straight away. How wrong was I?

 

Brilliant work Johan and Pete, looks like ill be doing some unplanned downloading tomorrow instead of work but that can always wait :)

 

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Some numbers for the NGX guys to test and compare too after the mod. I ran some quick numbers from the performance manual. These numbers are based on the BBJ 737-700. For an aircraft at 179,000lbs, flaps 15,4000PA , 32C and dry runway. The takeoff ground run up to 35ft was 11,100ft. For landing distance I looked at MAX manual braking and also autobrake set to 2. For an aircraft at 179,000lbs, flaps 30, 4000PA, 32C and dry runway. With max man braking + auto spoilers landing distance was 4150ft. With auto brake set to 2 + auto spoilers landing distance was 9250ft. Landing distance is based on thresh at 50ft and 1000ft air distance. You can also shoot me some conditions and weights. Ground run is a bit harder since the charts are based on runway available + conditions to give a runway limiting gross weight instead of distance based on a given gross weight. The landing distance is alot easier as it gives you corrections based on weight, PA, Temp, braking conditions, reverse, spoiler and auto brake use. I can calculate it as long as it is a BBJ 737-700.

 

Good luck trying to use those numbers to check the FSX NGX simulation fidelity. It is important for anyone seriously trying to do that to understand what is represented in those numbers. For takeoff, the distance is from brake release (with full takeoff thrust) to a height of 35 feet above the takeoff surface with one engine failing suddenly to a windmilling condition one second before V1.

 

For landing, the 1000 foot air distance is provided as a nice fixed round number to allow operators to adjust the landing distances to match their operations. You're better off just subtracting that 1000 feet from the landing distance to get the ground distance from touchdown. And don't bother with any of the braking conditions other than dry unless someone is going to try to adjust the FSX friction values for these other braking conditions.

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Set this up today and 5 min later I had a new sim. I can now follow the yellow taxi lines without the plane veering all over the place. The 'feel' of it is amazing It completely changes the airport experience and I can even pull up at the stand and the little man is happy for a change. I'm all smiles so mega thanks people. :)

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Could Pete or someone possibly create a new thread for this so that it's easy to find the latest files that can be edited in the first post rather than us having to sift through pages looking for them?

 

I haven't had time to read through it but for what I have read it sounds very promising and definitely one of those must do things to do to your FSX install.

 

Could I request that someone tells me what I need to have installed, in order to have the latest files for FSX Accel?

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I can now follow the yellow taxi lines without the plane veering all over the place.

 

Bri, how fast were you taxiing? And in what planes? This value should show up in the GPS ground speed if your plane is so equipped.

 

PM me if you wish.

 

Hook

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Could Pete or someone possibly create a new thread for this so that it's easy to find the latest files that can be edited in the first post rather than us having to sift through pages looking for them?

 

I haven't had time to read through it but for what I have read it sounds very promising and definitely one of those must do things to do to your FSX install.

 

Could I request that someone tells me what I need to have installed, in order to have the latest files for FSX Accel?

 

Pete has a forum and a thread where he lists all the latest FSUIPC updates and he supplies full documentation.

 

http://forum.simflight.com/topic/66139-updated-modules/

 

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Good luck trying to use those numbers to check the FSX NGX simulation fidelity. It is important for anyone seriously trying to do that to understand what is represented in those numbers. For takeoff, the distance is from brake release (with full takeoff thrust) to a height of 35 feet above the takeoff surface with one engine failing suddenly to a windmilling condition one second before V1.

 

For landing, the 1000 foot air distance is provided as a nice fixed round number to allow operators to adjust the landing distances to match their operations. You're better off just subtracting that 1000 feet from the landing distance to get the ground distance from touchdown. And don't bother with any of the braking conditions other than dry unless someone is going to try to adjust the FSX friction values for these other braking conditions.

Those numbers are for a comparison, not to validate the NGX performance. I doubt that the NGX would be exact. Some NGX owners are concerned that the MOD is going to throw off the NGX performance. The numbers just give an idea of the real world NG standard. Just a target. Takeoff run to 35ft is not much difference from the engine out scenario. You notice this during V1 cuts in the sim. You would actually have to call V1 at 5 knots prior to complete the call by V1 if you wanted to be precise. Some operators do.The time between V1 and 35ft is not long. For example, at 140,000 on a dry runway STD day V speeds are V1-120 VR-122 V2-132. Engine out, it takes about 2 seconds extra to reach lift-off and another 2 to 3 seconds extra to reach 35ft compared to all engines. The 1000ft air distance is based on the 737 target gear touch down point of 1000ft down the runway. Flare distance is from 1000 to 2000ft. Either way, they are just some numbers for the NGX guys/gals to compare too. If the takeoff run distances are close, then use the mod. If the landing distance falls between the wet and dry numbers, you know you are close enough. Atleast they will have a number to shoot towards when adjusting braking strength. :)

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I'm currently inside the FSUIPC user interface- does anyone know where we can activate the friction feature the last 8 pages have been talking about (something with LUA?)

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