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Rlambert93

Anti ice operations

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Just a quick one as the uk is getting some real winter weather when should i be using wings anti ice and engine anti ice. Can someone explain should there be on all the time or just in low temps and what condtions.

 

 

Many thanks

Rob Lambert

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Icing conditions are defined as where the temp is below 10 decrees C and there is visible moisture in the air.

 

Where the anti-icing method is used, the protection system is switched on prior to encountering icing conditions and it remains on so that no ice is allowed to form on the surface.

 

So I guess then.

 

Hope that helps

 

I have no idea of RW operations but those are the EASA/CAA regs.


Richie Lumsden

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All the anti ice systems works on the NGX, but icing is not simulated (not even a little). So no ramifications for forgeting to use it. Unless I'm mistaken? But AI is still realistic enough to plan a flight correctly around it. For example the AI driven from bleed air is simulated.


J u l ia n D i a m a n d i s

 

 

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but icing is not simulated (not even a little)

Not quite true, read this:

 

Icing is indeed simulated in FSX. But it is very "dumbed down". This often gives the misinterpretation that it is not implemented at all. Microsoft apparently dumbed it down because, generally, weekend Flight Simulator pilots do not fully understand the parameters and conditions under which they do and do not need to use anti-icing equipment. And, rather than have simulated planes falling out of the sky or crashing in to mountains, generating negative feedback for their Flight Simualtor and its sales, Microsoft opted for a dumbed down approach.

 

Charles (Dutch) Owen released an ANTI ICE gauge for Flight Simulator and did some excellent TESTS on the subject matter. His README explains the subject matter very well and he provides tweaks that you can make to change the icing in the simulator so that it is much more realistic than what is provided by default.

 

Look for IceV10.zip by Charles (Dutch) Owen in the File Library.

 

http://www.flightsim.com/vbfs/showthread.php?254715-Anti-Icing-and-should-it-always-be-on-at-high-altitude

 

Robert


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I can testify its simulated in piston and turbo props. Prop and carb icing anyway. I cant say I ever encounter structural icing in FSX. As Robert states, perhaps I have and just too dumb to know it?

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These two videos will explain everything. One thing to remember is not to leave the airframe anti-ice on permanently as it effects the efficiency of the engines. Once the OAT is below -15c turn it off. Any ice has already formed and won;t accumulate on the a/c.

 

 

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mbKQ7mZM8Zg


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Super VC10 into LOWI with PF3 at a cinema near you

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=298UDyNmgUA

 

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Wouldve made more sense if Microsoft wouldve made this an option to be enabled or not.

 

I have forgotton a few times to add anti ice specifically when the overcast you first encounter is at around 9000 so you wouldnt need it on takeoff in order to get a better climb rate, but have forgotten to put it on when reaching the clouds. For this there should be a dramatic decrease in performance and flight dynamics as ice builds up therefore being penalized for such a mistake on my part. Its my understanding, that the

NGX and other aircraft will give the warning, but there is no consequence if you dont put it on.

 

I see more new aircraft being developed with icing effects but is there actually a detrimental effect on the flight?


Dave Seminchuk  CYVR LSZH 

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Post from Dutch:

 

Many simmers don't think icing -- beyond pitot and carb icing -- is modeled in FS2004/X, but they are wrong. They don't think it's modeled because they seldom or never see any icing effects when they think they should – in clouds with the temps below freezing.

 

Structural icing *is* simulated, and propellor icing is simulated; to the point where the detrimental effects on an airplane could cause it to be unable to maintain altitude (after a long time in the ice). The effects are increased weight and drag, less wing lift, lowered thrust due to a drop in propeller efficiency, and a raising of stall speed.

 

The reason simmers don't see effects is that that the icing accumulation is so slow that only the "severe" level represents any danger at all, and that level is rarely allocated to a cloud layer by the real weather METAR interpreter; be that the built-in one or ASV6.5.

 

You can reproduce severe icing easily in the sim, and fly the default Cessna into it as a test. After about 20 continuous minutes in severe icing, the airplane won't be able to hold altitude anymore and you'll have to descend or stall. To actually see how the umbers being affected by the ice (including the amount of "Ice Weight" added, use the free utility AFSD which you can find with Google.

 

It's important to realize that the only factor that produces icing is the icing attribute of a cloud layer. The temperature, cloud cover, and precipitation don't have anything to do with it. To produce any appreciable ice, set up your weather to cover "all stations" and a single cloud layer starting low with icing set to "severe". Any airplane you fly into this layer will ice up. It's just that the effects are so subtle and the accumulation so slow you have to be patient to see the effects, mainly a slowing of IAS.

 

Structural ice is in the sim, but it's wimpy.

 

Anti-icing systems will work on aircraft if they are properly set up, but this is rare. None of the FS2004 airplanes have actual working wing and prop de-icers, for example.

 

Interesting, eh?

 

I'm also working on an "ice gauge" that'll show you your wing ice status, and also enforce some more realistic consequences...

 

Robert

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Just a quick one as the uk is getting some real winter weather when should i be using wings anti ice and engine anti ice. Can someone explain should there be on all the time or just in low temps and what condtions.

 

 

Many thanks

Rob Lambert

 

Easy. Use engine thermal anti-ice (TAI) when ever in icing conditions or icing conditions are anticipated (in other words, if you are about to enter icing conditions, put the engine TAI on before getting into it.

 

As for wing anti-ice. Generally it is used as a de-ice tool, i.e. only used when icing is actually present on the airframe. In real life we take cues from ice formation on the wiper nut or window edges (amongst other things). If ice collects in those places then it will start to accumulate on the wings....

 

...however, in FSX these cues are not present. But I can tell you that in real life, I have only used wing anti-ice twice in 5 years of flying around the world. So it isn't common.

 

On the ground, as before, engine anti-ice is to be used when ever in icing conditions. Wing anti-ice is to be used also as an anti-ice tool (prevent the formation of ice occurring). In reality this would only be in icing conditions and when de-ice/anti-ice fluid has not been used (i.e. practically hardly ever). If you do use it on the ground it will auto-shutoff when you apply T/O power and auto switch off when you lift off.

 

Read the FCOM1, Supplementary Procedures, Adverse Weather section for more precise and detailed info.


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On the ground, as before, engine anti-ice is to be used when ever in icing conditions. Wing anti-ice is to be used also as an anti-ice tool (prevent the formation of ice occurring). In reality this would only be in icing conditions and when de-ice/anti-ice fluid has not been used (i.e. practically hardly ever). If you do use it on the ground it will auto-shutoff when you apply T/O power and auto switch off when you lift off.

 

 

Properly set-up the sim will produce icing conditions that are close to reality. If you choose to fly through freezing rain then ice "will" accumulate. How many a/c models in the sim have an anti-ice switch that actually does clear the ice and is not just a fancy gismo?


3VlzBGn.jpg?1

Super VC10 into LOWI with PF3 at a cinema near you

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=298UDyNmgUA

 

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Properly set-up the sim will produce icing conditions that are close to reality. If you choose to fly through freezing rain then ice "will" accumulate. How many a/c models in the sim have an anti-ice switch that actually does clear the ice and is not just a fancy gismo?

Sorry, I don't disagree, but I also don't understand the context of your response.


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The way wing anti ice works in FS is pretty crude and unrealistic however it can bite you if your not carefull and have it enabled in fsuipc. It basically increases the gross weight of the aircraft as ice builds up until the aircraft eventually stalls.

 

Many many years ago I was on Vatsim in the PMDG 747, was kept in a hold over Lambourne due to traffic and controller issues, weather was freezing rain and after 20 mins or so with no WAI the stick shaker started, aircraft rolled and that was the end of that.

 

Took me by surprise, that was after a longhaul from VHHH so to say I was a little p****** off is an understatement.


Rob Prest

 

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The way wing anti ice works in FS is pretty crude and unrealistic however it can bite you if your not carefull and have it enabled in fsuipc. It basically increases the gross weight of the aircraft as ice builds up until the aircraft eventually stalls.

 

Many many years ago I was on Vatsim in the PMDG 747, was kept in a hold over Lambourne due to traffic and controller issues, weather was freezing rain and after 20 mins or so with no WAI the stick shaker started, aircraft rolled and that was the end of that.

 

Took me by surprise, that was after a longhaul from VHHH so to say I was a little p****** off is an understatement.

 

Didn't the vatsim controller know the weather? Didn't you tell him? Didn't you have anti-ice turned on or was is just a dummy switch?


3VlzBGn.jpg?1

Super VC10 into LOWI with PF3 at a cinema near you

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=298UDyNmgUA

 

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At that point in time I wasn't even aware icing was simulated apart from the pitot tube freezing. Doubt the controller knew either. Besides it was my responsibility to enable wing & engine anti ice so lesson learnt.

 

As far as I am aware, working wing and nacelle anti ice do work on all the main complex addons, there is a gauge out there that you can use to test how much weight is being added by ice, not too sure what the name is.

 

Don't you create freeware aircraft? You probably know a lot more about how it works then I do?

 

Anyway, as mentioned it is pretty crude and unrealistic.

 

Regards


Rob Prest

 

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