Concerning pressure on the controls and how fight sims don't get it right, one example that's often cited is that of setting elevator trim. People will say that it's impossible to set the elevator trim correctly by neutralizing the pressure needed on the controls, and I've never seen anyone say anything different.

 

But my personal experience doesn't reflect that. For example, when I'm transitioning from cruise to climb, after I've got the power set and the nose pulled up to the usual sight picture of the horizon on the cowling, and my airspeed has stabilized to the desired rate for climb, I'm ready to set the trim. I'm holding some back pressure on the control to maintain correct attitude, and I apply trim a bit at a time while maintaining the same sight picture with the horizon. As I apply trim, I have to use less back pressure on the controls and it's quite noticeable. Eventually there's no more back pressure, and I can do a bit of fine tuning to keep the airspeed correct. Yes, there is some actual control movement involved, but I seldom notice it as I'm concentrating on the pressure on the controls. I'm not training my muscles, I'm training my mind.

 

Hook

Problem with elevator trim is not FSX problem, its purely a control device problem i.e. your joystick.

Problem with elevator trim is not FSX problem, its purely a control device problem i.e. your joystick.

 

It's a good thing I'm not having any problems then.

 

What about all those other people who complained? At least some of them would be using the same controls I do. And I use a yoke in aircraft equipped with one.

 

Hook

Well, if you do not have force feedback joystick/yoke its indeed impossible to set elevator trim using RW technique.

I am in SERIOUS disagreement with anyone who offers argument that states a parity between control movement and control pressure when it comes to giving flight instruction.

From the INSTANT a new student takes flight it is extremely destructive for an instructor to allow a student to continue a belief based upon prior exposure to a desktop simulator that control of an airplane should be thought of as "movement of the controls".

Naturally we see as pilots that if we "move the controls" a certain way, they will "move" a certain way. That is NOT what a pilot needs to understand about aircraft controls. Movement is basic and can be explained in seconds. What the STUDENT has to understand is that PRESSURE on the controls and the RESULT of that PRESSURE will vary for the SAME AMOUNT OF MOVEMENT of that control as a function of AIRSPEED or more correctly of the dynamic pressure on the control surface!

THIS is good flight instruction. Concentration on control movement is BAD flight instruction and generally bad advice to ANY pilot!

It's for these reasons I ask students to stand down from FSX while they are learning about control pressure and its effect on the airplane.

 

Let's get a few things straightened out. I used the term "control movement" in an earlier reply. While you're thinking distance of movement, or throw, I'm thinking direction, as in right stick for right aileron, pull back for up elevator, etc. Therefor, I'm right, you're right, and so on. As you've said, it's the pressure that's important. It's also the reason that I feel that desk top flight simulators do not need force feedback, or controls that match the size & throw as the real deal. I can sim fly with 2" R/C sticks just as well as my Saitek X52 joystick. The point is to move the controls enough.............to get the desired job done. No more, and no less. We know that getting the job done, is from what we see on the screen. Some sense of feel is provided by the joysticks centering spring & what we see.

 

Up to and including FS98, as well as X-Plane somewhere in version 8, I felt that sim models had no feel. It was like a puppet on a string in a vacuum. Move the stick, and the model responded directly. Then someone figured you could sense some simulated air pressure on a control stick or yoke. For instance, apply some flaps in a high wing Cessna & the nose balloons up. Put in a bit of down pressure on the yoke, and it still needs a bit more to level out. So you add a bit more down pressure (against that little centering spring), and you now sense the "feel" of pressure against the stick. At least I do, because my "pilot" brain is filling in the gaps, since I know what it suppose to feel like.

 

Anyway, I'm very aware of pressures versus the amount of control movement. I never got to sit front seat in a friends P-51D. Just in the back where the fuselage fuel tank once resided. It was a 1944 model with the Cavilier conversion done in the 60's. But I have flown the Stearmans, the Pitt's, the Marchetti's, Van's RV's, etc. So............when we talk control movement, & pressures, I'm very aware. Do I agree with no simming time from the first hour of dual until solo? Not just yet..... :rolleyes:

 

L.Adamson

Let's get a few things straightened out. I used the term "control movement" in an earlier reply. While you're thinking distance of movement, or throw, I'm thinking direction, as in right stick for right aileron, pull back for up elevator, etc. Therefor, I'm right, you're right, and so on. As you've said, it's the pressure that's important. It's also the reason that I feel that desk top flight simulators do not need force feedback, or controls that match the size & throw as the real deal. I can sim fly with 2" R/C sticks just as well as my Saitek X52 joystick. The point is to move the controls enough.............to get the desired job done. No more, and no less. We know that getting the job done, is from what we see on the screen. Some sense of feel is provided by the joysticks centering spring & what we see.

 

Up to and including FS98, as well as X-Plane somewhere in version 8, I felt that sim models had no feel. It was like a puppet on a string in a vacuum. Move the stick, and the model responded directly. Then someone figured you could sense some simulated air pressure on a control stick or yoke. For instance, apply some flaps in a high wing Cessna & the nose balloons up. Put in a bit of down pressure on the yoke, and it still needs a bit more to level out. So you add a bit more down pressure (against that little centering spring), and you now sense the "feel" of pressure against the stick. At least I do, because my "pilot" brain is filling in the gaps, since I know what it suppose to feel like.

 

Anyway, I'm very aware of pressures versus the amount of control movement. I never got to sit front seat in a friends P-51D. Just in the back where the fuselage fuel tank once resided. It was a 1944 model with the Cavilier conversion done in the 60's. But I have flown the Stearmans, the Pitt's, the Marchetti's, Van's RV's, etc. So............when we talk control movement, & pressures, I'm very aware. Do I agree with no simming time from the first hour of dual until solo? Not just yet..... :rolleyes:

 

L.Adamson

 

 

I'm not in a contest with you.

 

FAA Airplane Flying Handbook

FAA-H-8083-3A

Chapter 3

Basic Flight Maneuvers

Page 3-1

Right Column

Paragraph 3

(In reference to the issue of control pressure vs control movement when discussing MSFS vs the real flight instruction environment)

As per the manual;

" The flight instructor should explain that the controls have a natural "live PRESSURE while in flight and that they will remain in neutral position of their own accord if the airplane is trimmed properly.

With this in mind, the pilot should be cautioned NEVER TO THINK OF MOVEMENT OF THE CONTROLS but of exerting a force on them against this live PRESSURE or resistance."

End of quote.

Well, if you do not have force feedback joystick/yoke its indeed impossible to set elevator trim using RW technique.

 

I'm not a fan of force feedback. I do sense an out of trim situation from what I see on the screen & the joysticks centering spring. I built my Van's RV6 with a four way hat switch for elevator & aileron trim mounted on the stick grip. I do the same for flight simming with the hat switch mounted on the Sailtek X-52.

 

Sure.............I'm not trimming by real control pressures as you would in a plane. If you take away the monitors screen, or I close my eyes, then I'll sense no pressure to trim out. But with the visuals on the screen, combined with the joystick's centering spring............I do sense an out of trim situation, and trim accordingly. I trim whenever it's needed. And it's done the same way, with the hat switch.

 

I've often used some examples of tricking the mind. We can sense movement, while remaining motionless. It's like sitting in your car at a stop light. The light is still red, but the car next to you, moves slightly forward. Your mind senses that you're rolling backwards, and you slam on the brakes. Happily, good simulated flight models can do the same.

 

L.Adamson

 

I'm not in a contest with you.

 

 

FAA Airplane Flying Handbook

FAA-H-8083-3A

Chapter 3

Basic Flight Maneuvers

Page 3-1

Right Column

Paragraph 3

 

(In reference to the issue of control pressure vs control movement when discussing MSFS vs the real flight instruction environment)

 

As per the manual;

" The flight instructor should explain that the controls have a natural "live PRESSURE while in flight and that they will remain in neutral position of their own accord if the airplane is trimmed properly.

 

With this in mind, the pilot should be cautioned NEVER TO THINK OF MOVEMENT OF THE CONTROLS but of exerting a force on them against this live PRESSURE or resistance."

 

End of quote.

 

OKAY ----------------- FINE!!!!

 

I'll make it a point to read the FAA hand book before saying anything else. Never the less, when I move my control stick, to the right, my differential "frize" aileron is going to move up. I'm moving it, period. And if it doesn't move because it's jammed, all the pressure I can muster, won't make any difference! Other than that, and the fact that it appears that the hand book is written this way, I'm not disagreeing at all.

 

L.Adamson

 

edit: I don't want to be in a battling contest either.

I'm not a fan of force feedback. I do sense an out of trim situation from what I see on the screen & the joysticks centering spring. I built my Van's RV6 with a four way hat switch for elevator & aileron trim mounted on the stick grip. I do the same for flight simming with the hat switch mounted on the Sailtek X-52.

 

Sure.............I'm not trimming by real control pressures as you would in a plane. If you take away the monitors screen, or I close my eyes, then I'll sense no pressure to trim out. But with the visuals on the screen, combined with the joystick's centering spring............I do sense an out of trim situation, and trim accordingly. I trim whenever it's needed. And it's done the same way, with the hat switch.

 

I've often used some examples of tricking the mind. We can sense movement, while remaining motionless. It's like sitting in your car at a stop light. The light is still red, but the car next to you, moves slightly forward. Your mind senses that you're rolling backwards, and you slam on the brakes. Happily, good simulated flight models can do the same.

 

L.Adamson

 

 

 

OKAY ----------------- FINE!!!!

 

I'll make it a point to read the FAA hand book before saying anything else. Never the less, when I move my control stick, to the right, my differential "frize" aileron is going to move up. I'm moving it, period. And if it doesn't move because it's jammed, all the pressure I can muster, won't make any difference! Other than that, and the fact that it appears that the hand book is written this way, I'm not disagreeing at all.

 

L.Adamson

 

I see we are now in complete agreement then? So might I suggest that we cease these exchanges and allow Tom his bandwidth back to direct into more productive exchanges?

Thank you for your cooperation and my very best to you.

DH

Im not a fan of force feadback too, I just observed its required if you want to practice RW trim technique. :smile: While the technique you described works well in FS, we cannot say its same as RW technique.

 

@dhenriques: Whats with fbw aircraft? Although I'm not aware of any kind of fbw aircraft for basic training, how would you train an newbie in such conditions?

Im not a fan of force feadback too, I just observed its required if you want to practice RW trim technique. :smile: While the technique you described works well in FS, we cannot say its same as RW technique.

 

@dhenriques: Whats with fbw aircraft? Although I'm not aware of any kind of fbw aircraft for basic training, how would you train an newbie in such conditions?

Im not a fan of force feadback too, I just observed its required if you want to practice RW trim technique. :smile: While the technique you described works well in FS, we cannot say its same as RW technique.

 

@dhenriques: Whats with fbw aircraft? Although I'm not aware of any kind of fbw aircraft for basic training, how would you train an newbie in such conditions?

 

Of all the controllers we tested we found force feedback the most unrealistic. I never recommend them if realism is the objective.

 

FBW and irreversible controls are a whole new ball game but aside from the artificial feel not much different in practical use once the systems are totally understood. It's mainly a cost factor that defines the reversible systems we find in many of our introductory training airplanes.

Personally I don't see any specific issues related to either system. I remember flying an Extra one morning then flying a T38 later on that afternoon. Both aircraft are extremely sensitive control wise.

For a newbie, it's the sensitivity issue that has be addressed. You apply a specific aileron and inside rudder pressure to a Cessna 172 and you'll get a specific angle of bank for that input. Apply the same amount of aileron and inside rudder pressure to an Extra or a T38 and you might very well do several rolls before you are able to stop it :-)

Like everything else in flying, you learn using what the aircraft you're flying is giving you to learn on. :-)

Dudley Henriques

Thank you for your cooperation and my very best to you.

 

And the best to you, too.

 

L.Adamson

I see we are now in complete agreement then?

 

Not even close. You've simply beaten him into submission. May I suggest in the future to dispense with ALL the CAPS to MAKE your POINT, as it doesn't work, and posting in a huge font is annoying screaming.

 

If you were my flight instructor, I'd be finding another. Sorry. You're fired.

 

Hook

If you were my flight instructor, I'd be finding another. Sorry. You're fired.

 

He's really a good guy. Just as long as he doesn't tell someone to throw their GPS into the back seat! I was once told by an instructor, that I shouldn't be flying, if I wasn't setting my OBSs before every cross country flight. Some still think of VORs as basic fundemental skills for airmen. To me, they're just technology that replaced an inferior type of technology, only to be replaced by a superior form of technology. My RV6 never had any Nav radios, except for a portable nav/com I carried along. Since I have a real interest in the prevention of CFIT (controlled flight into terrain), which I've had for decades now.........I'm no longer very fond of the VOR system. Are we getting off the original thread's intention, yet?

Not even close. You've simply beaten him into submission. May I suggest in the future to dispense with ALL the CAPS to MAKE your POINT, as it doesn't work, and posting in a huge font is annoying screaming.

 

If you were my flight instructor, I'd be finding another. Sorry. You're fired.

 

Hook

 

The caps were already in the text. I wouldn't have keyed them had I had a choice. It was simply copied and pasted from a past lecture file.

No sweat on the CFI change.

Best to you,

DH

 

He's really a good guy. Just as long as he doesn't tell someone to throw their GPS into the back seat!

 

I love GPS technology. Just bought one this afternoon. I highly recommend them. :-)

DH

GPS is fun killer for me, I do not use it unless I need it.