Navdata vs. Radar contact?

[Vulkan 2]

If I file a flighplan with new navdata from Navigraph, can I still use Radar Contact? I mean, what if the new navdata contains a waypoint that is not recognized by RC. What happens then? Will I not be credited as having passed that wp, or will rc just not load that flight plan?

 

For example. I am flying the PMDG 737. It is possible to update the navdata from Navigraph for the 737NGX. But as I understand, the FSX itself is not updated, just the NGX. So how does RC understand that?

[Pete Dowson 558]

If I file a flighplan with new navdata from Navigraph, can I still use Radar Contact? I mean, what if the new navdata contains a waypoint that is not recognized by RC. What happens then? Will I not be credited as having passed that wp, or will rc just not load that flight plan?

 

For example. I am flying the PMDG 737. It is possible to update the navdata from Navigraph for the 737NGX. But as I understand, the FSX itself is not updated, just the NGX. So how does RC understand that?

 

The flight plan contains the latitude and longitude of each waypoint. That's all it needs to understand it enough for vector and path checking. It doesn't know or care about alttude constraints, it makes its own mind up about altitudes flown.

 

Pete

[ronzie 21]

If you use the terminal FMC database in the PMDG FMC, you will need to insure that your flight planner uses the same database. I use FSBuild 2.4 which is Navigraph (or Aerosoft's new AIRAC product) updatable as are the PMDG FMCs.

 

For SIDs and STARs RC needs the waypoints from 30 nm from departure to about 35 nm from arrival since SIDs and STARs can include the enroute phase. There are ways to have RC sync up with runway specific SIDs and STARs by using waypoints only common to all runways in the plan sent to RC to allow dynamic runway assignment within the flight.

 

Here's a tip sheet for FSBuild on syncing things up but it might apply to your planner as well.

 

 

 

In RC selecting a DP (departure procedure with or without altitude restrictions by RC) lets you navigate without RC monitoring within 30 nm and selecting on approach IAP lets you navigate within 35 nm on your own after accepting the first vector to the assigned runway and then requesting the IAP. (In the departure phase if your first waypoint is within 30 nm then an a DP is assumed, otherwise you can force it if you wish.)

[Vulkan 2]

If you use the terminal FMC database in the PMDG FMC, you will need to insure that your flight planner uses the same database. I use FSBuild 2.4 which is Navigraph (or Aerosoft's new AIRAC product) updatable as are the PMDG FMCs.

 

For SIDs and STARs RC needs the waypoints from 30 nm from departure to about 35 nm from arrival since SIDs and STARs can include the enroute phase. There are ways to have RC sync up with runway specific SIDs and STARs by using waypoints only common to all runways in the plan sent to RC to allow dynamic runway assignment within the flight.

 

Here's a tip sheet for FSBuild on syncing things up but it might apply to your planner as well.

 

 

 

In RC selecting a DP (departure procedure with or without altitude restrictions by RC) lets you navigate without RC monitoring within 30 nm and selecting on approach IAP lets you navigate within 35 nm on your own after accepting the first vector to the assigned runway and then requesting the IAP. (In the departure phase if your first waypoint is within 30 nm then an a DP is assumed, otherwise you can force it if you wish.)

 

Thanks for the reply guys!

 

Ok, so if I get this right. The FMC doesn't care about the original FSX database. It just flies?

 

But what happens if a waypoint (not a terminal waypoint) is not included in the original fsx database? For example. I fly alot to and from Stockholm Arlanda (ESSA). ESSA has since the summer of 2012 a new STAR for traffic from the south with a new waypoint to start the approach from. That waypoint is NILUG and that is not included in the original FSX database. I imagine that if I update to the latest AIRAC for the NGX, I will have NILUG in there. And if I use a planner that has NILUG, I can fly there. Radar contact doesn't care what the wp is named? It just translates it into cordinates and lets me fly?

 

Am I understanding this correct?

[Pete Dowson 558]

But what happens if a waypoint (not a terminal waypoint) is not included in the original fsx database? For example. I fly alot to and from Stockholm Arlanda (ESSA). ESSA has since the summer of 2012 a new STAR for traffic from the south with a new waypoint to start the approach from. That waypoint is NILUG and that is not included in the original FSX database. I imagine that if I update to the latest AIRAC for the NGX, I will have NILUG in there. And if I use a planner that has NILUG, I can fly there. Radar contact doesn't care what the wp is named? It just translates it into cordinates and lets me fly?

 

Am I understanding this correct?

 

Yes, pretty much. A waypoint, denoted by 5 letters, is just a position, a latitude and longitude. There's nothing actually there, no hardware, no transmitter, not even a flag. Anything that needs to use it only needs its position, which the updated AIRAC data provides.

 

Positions with radio transmitters, such as VORs and ADFs, would need updated scenery files installed in FS if they are to be tuned in and received. However, even those can be used for navigation by their defined positions, you'd just not tune in and receive them. Airliner navigation needs these less and less in any case these days, with GPS and IRS positioning being so good.

 

Regards

Pete

[chrispeel 0]

Hi Vulkan

 

I have a similar problem when flying into London Heathrow from the north west.Most of the STARS have a waypoint called NUGRA.It's actually very close to where I live and is close to TOD being over 100 miles from destination It is not in FSX though.So you can't build a flightpath in FSX using NUGRA .It is in the PMDG/Navdata system so can be programmed there.RC gets it's data from the FSX plan however.

 

But if you use FSBuild,which is much more up to date,it can export the plan to both PMDG and FSX (and LD767 and others by choice) even though NUGRA isn't in FSX.So RC4 picks it up and expects you to fly to it.

 

As a matter of interest in the real world many waypoints in STARS are bypassed by ATC by giving vectors.In fact even whole flights are sometimes flown on vectors especially short EU routes.

[Pete Dowson 558]

It is in the PMDG/Navdata system so can be programmed there.RC gets it's data from the FSX plan however.

 

Obviously when using FSX to create your plans you cannot use waypoints which are not in FSX. The FS planner is not very good in any case. I would be surprised if PMDG NGX owners were really using FSX for their plans. It really isn't up to PMDG standards at all.

 

Regards

Pete

[ronzie 21]

The PMDG 747s I believe have the capability of tuning LOC/ILS (nav receivers) to the LOC/ILS frequencies in their database. I'm not sure if the frequencies are defined in the AIRAC databases. If it is different than the LOC/ILS frequencies in the FS default or installed add-on scenery then manual tuning is required for the LOC/ILS landing procedure as is done on the 737s.

 

If you wish to check before starting FS the ILS/LOC frequencies you can check in the FS folder by opening with wordpad, not excel or otherr spreadsheet, r5.csv which is extracted via makerwys during the RC scenery rebuild. Search for the ICAO code and you get the rows for each runway. Here's an example:

 

KMSP,0040,44.870926,-93.240189,841,42.650,11699,109.30G,150,2.300,44.882282,-93.224190,2250,CT,CL

KMSP,0121,44.892944,-93.221008,841,119.080,8189,110.70DG,150,2.300,44.887096,-93.207474,0,,

KMSP,0122,44.888786,-93.236450,841,119.090,10700,110.30DG,200,2.300,44.881142,-93.218773,700,,

KMSP,0170,44.887112,-93.241776,841,168.000,7800,0,160,2.300,44.876568,-93.239235,0,,CL

KMSP,0220,44.893639,-93.208191,841,222.650,11699,110.50G,150,2.300,44.882282,-93.224190,988,CT,CL

KMSP,0301,44.873497,-93.201096,841,299.090,10700,110.30DG,200,2.300,44.881142,-93.218773,0,,

KMSP,0302,44.881248,-93.193939,841,299.080,8189,110.70BDG,150,2.300,44.887096,-93.207474,0,,

KMSP,0350,44.866024,-93.236694,841,348.000,7800,110.95DG,160,2.300,44.876568,-93.239235,0,CT,

 

I highlighted the field in bold. 0 means no localizer.

G means glideslope available and D means DME available. B is back course enabled. The last two fields indicate whether each runway is CL - Closed for landing, CT - Closed for take-off, or Closed for both. (ai does not respond correctly unless those closure attributes are the same at each runway end,)

 

The runway code for most purposes disregard the first character (0). The next two are the runway ID where here 04 is runway 4 and 22 is runway 22. The next number, if not 0 adds an additional identifier where 1 is left, 2 is right, and 3 is center so 0301 is runway 30L. In your fs folder MakeRwys ReadMe.txt gives the full definitions of the various database layouts. RC4.3 copies r5.csv to r4.csv in the RCv4\data folder.

 

So now you can look up the localizer/ILS frequencies to be used that your nav radios will respond to especially if you want a glideslope or use the preferred RAW (transmitted beam) for navigation to the runway as opposed to coordinates. This should take care of any chart discrepancies against installed localizers in your FS scenery regarding nav frequencies.

 

As Pete stated for navaids the PMDG 737s, 747s, will use the coordinates in RNAV mode when the navaid beams are not picked up. In this lattercase of mismatched frequencies there will be no glideslope or DME reference. They will just act as RNAV waypoints.

[Vulkan 2]

Obviously when using FSX to create your plans you cannot use waypoints which are not in FSX. The FS planner is not very good in any case. I would be surprised if PMDG NGX owners were really using FSX for their plans. It really isn't up to PMDG standards at all.

 

Regards

Pete

 

Thanks again! I am not using FSX to plan my flights. I have been using routefiner, but I am thinking of moving to FS build instead as I get told that that is a good product. I was just wondering if the FSX old database could screw it up, but appereantly it doesn't matter except for VOR, DME and such. I don't care much about those. But I do want the current waypoints (five letters).

[ronzie 21]

http://www.fsbuild.c...5eaf0da83db365d is a very active support forum for FSB. Documentation is not the best and there is a learning curve.

 

I paste route listings from flightaware.com into its route line. You should be able to paste those from routefinder as well. Sometimes a SID or STAR label is slightly off but each airport and selected runway has a dropdown showing SIDs and STARs available. If you use its auto route generator just proof the route in the map section of the route table and look for any odd legs. You can then use the option to build from the route table and do any editing necessary, then rebuild with that option turned on.

 

It does have many .pln and FMC formatted outputs so it can be useful for conversions as well by importing a standard format.

 

Here is a route table snapshot showing how SIDs and STARs are expanded;

 

 

[Dirk98 354]

Speaking of custom SIDs and STARs: otherwise, if I understand it right, you can build a basic FSX plan without SID's and STARs and with the initial/final waypoints even farther away than 30/35nm requirement by RC4, and still fly your custom database SIDs/STARs to/from those waypoints. Just make sure to check NOTAMs for flexible altitudes at departure and destination and ignore the ATC nagging for a while, up to/from the initial/final waypoints. Then you can use even more options available in RC in-game menu to fly as you want. Is it correct?

 

Dirk.

[ronzie 21]

Just choose a DP with or without altitudes announced by RC ATC. You can navigate on your own within the 30 nm as long as you are pointing to the next waypoint in the RC plan when you exit the 30 nm radius. Choose NOTAMS on top of that.

 

For non-runway specific DPs just use those waypoints outside of 30 nm and for runway specific ones just use common waypoints outside of the 30 nm in the plan sent to RC.

 

Again, your FMC database must have the waypoints for the DP/SID outside of the 30nm synchronized with those sent to RC when using a DP.

 

See how that works.